Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[CynthiaCypher]

I haven't read the whole thread, so bear with me if this as come up before.

Islam is an idea and state of being. Islam is the state of being in submission to the one true God. There as always been submission to God because everything and everyone is in submission to God. So there as always been Islam.

Islam didn't start with Noah or Abraham or Moses or Jesus or even Muhammad, it started with God.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Then you don't seem to understand this thread at all. Or at least you avoid addressing the OP on a level which an educated, serious members can count as objective and relevant.

The Question in the OP is simple, it explores the influences for the emergence for an absolute Arabic monotheism, what we call today Islam. its an interesting historical question. What was the brewing ground in which Muhammad lived, and from which eventually the Qur'an and Islam were forged out of.

This isn't an Islamic forum, you can't expect us to embrace a 'God did it' type of answers for interesting historical questions, questions which we rather solve by doing our homework and reading interesting information about. 'Allah did it' is not an interesting answer, and it takes no effort to make.

I think you are avoiding answering a relevant question here. If the events/stories described in the OT/NT cannot be established based on historical accounts (as you are suggesting should be done for Islam), there is no basis for the OP. And I think it is quite clear that you cannot historically establish everything in those scriptures (i.e. God speaking to Moses(pbuh)) either.

 

[Pastek]

Its a complicated question. Short answer is that there is material in the apocrypha which discusses these stories in some detail.

Is it possible to have a link about this ?

 

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Its a complicated question. Short answer is that there is material in the apocrypha which discusses these stories in some detail.

Ok, thanks.

 

[F0uad]

I think its weird how the question was first raised normally and then was turned into a question about if Mohammed(saws) indeed had a revelation or copied scriptures.

If you want to have a dialogue or a debate about the Quran being inspired say so and don't try to twist words around to make your case.


You should ask yourself if Mohammed(saws) was really copying those things why would he die for that cause why would he honour jewish people so highly when some of them killed hes own companions and family and even had wars with them, why would he honor jesus's(p) mother above all the womans on earth A JEWISH WOMAN why not hes mother or wife, why would he teach monotheism while he could have all the riches in live ''IF'' he just went and changed ONE word, or at-least preached paganism what was offered to him....
Why was he upholding the laws that were giving by Moses(p), why was he prepared to die for this, if you really think he just made it up and copied/pasted just for fun your dumb by definition...

Dont forget i can make the list 10times bigger just ask this yourself and don't reply on it...

 

[beerisit]

I think its weird how the question was first raised normally and then was turned into a question about if Mohammed(saws) indeed had a revelation or copied scriptures.

If you want to have a dialogue or a debate about the Quran being inspired say so and don't try to twist words around to make your case.


You should ask yourself if Mohammed(saws) was really copying those things why would he die for that cause why would he honour jewish people so highly when some of them killed hes own companions and family and even had wars with them, why would he honor jesus's(p) mother above all the womans on earth A JEWISH WOMAN why not hes mother or wife, why would he teach monotheism while he could have all the riches in live ''IF'' he just went and changed ONE word, or at-least preached paganism what was offered to him....
Why was he upholding the laws that were giving by Moses(p), why was he prepared to die for this, if you really think he just made it up and copied/pasted just for fun your dumb by definition...

Dont forget i can make the list 10times bigger just ask this yourself and don't reply on it...

Very defensive and offensive, I guess.

 

[YmirGF]

Very defensive and offensive, I guess.

One gets used to it.

 

[YmirGF]

I haven't read the whole thread, so bear with me if this as come up before.

Islam is an idea and state of being. Islam is the state of being in submission to the one true God. There as always been submission to God because everything and everyone is in submission to God. So there as always been Islam.

Islam didn't start with Noah or Abraham or Moses or Jesus or even Muhammad, it started with God.

I utterly assure you, I am not in submission to any god, nor will I be in the foreseeable future.

 

[F0uad]

How was i offensive.. if i was i am sorry.
But the first question doesn't reflect what the person is actually saying later on.

 

[F0uad]

I utterly assure you, I am not in submission to any god, nor will I be in the foreseeable future.

Talking about being offensive and defensive

 

[beerisit]

Talking about being offensive and defensive

I don't get that, the poster was merely stating that he, like me, is not in submission to any god.
Maybe you can explain your post a bit more?

 

[Caladan]

I think you are avoiding answering a relevant question here. If the events/stories described in the OT/NT cannot be established based on historical accounts (as you are suggesting should be done for Islam), there is no basis for the OP. And I think it is quite clear that you cannot historically establish everything in those scriptures (i.e. God speaking to Moses(pbuh)) either.

You are changing the question. Remember, the question was not if the narratives of Islam and the Qur'an are God inspired or historical. The Question was focusing on the fact that an essential body of Islamic theology is based on what Judaism, and later Christianity already provided, not whether these stories are historical or not.

 

[Caladan]

I haven't read the whole thread, so bear with me if this as come up before.

Islam is an idea and state of being. Islam is the state of being in submission to the one true God. There as always been submission to God because everything and everyone is in submission to God. So there as always been Islam.

Islam didn't start with Noah or Abraham or Moses or Jesus or even Muhammad, it started with God.

In this case if Hinduism or Buddhism promote the idea of surrender. does that mean that Buddhism and Hinduism have existed forever? does it mean that each and every one of us who apply these ideas are Buddhists or Hindus and also Muslim?
This isn't what the OP is asking. as far as I see it we are aiming to discuss the cultural and geographical environment in which Islam evolved. it is common knowledge, that the Pagan and to a certain degree Henotheistic Arabs of the 7th century had regular contact and even lived with Jewish and Christian communities, and even had contact with the Sassanid empire, which was Zoroastrian.

In other words, the Hejaz during the 7th century was an interesting case in which native Arabic traditions and beliefs had a diffusion with Abrahamic faiths, and with Zoroastrianism. The Hunufa shows us how monotheistic ideas of the Abrahamic kind developed in this region, and Muhammad's movement shows us the political quest to change the religious and economic status of the region, starting with Mecca and it's Kaaba, which was a great economic asset for the Quraysh in it's polytheistic era, as all the Arab tribes of the region had to pay various taxes to this Meccan tribe during the months of pilgrimage, further more the Quraysh made sure to make the Kaaba an exclusive site with no alternatives in the region.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You are changing the question. Remember, the question was not if the narratives of Islam and the Qur'an are God inspired or historical. The Question was focusing on the fact that an essential body of Islamic theology is based on what Judaism, and later Christianity already provided, not whether these stories are historical or not.

Nice try. What a double standard? Blaming me of 'god did it' while you yourself believe that God it. At least I am saying that God did it for Moses(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh). And you are saying that God did it for Moses(pbuh) ( for the Jews ) only.

 

[Caladan]

Nice try. What a double standard? Blaming me of 'god did it' while you yourself believe that God it.

Do you have reading difficulties? no one here claims that any theology is historical. this isnt' even the question. only you are going in circles around this question. the rest of us are not claiming any historicity of any scripture either way.

At least I am saying that God did it for Moses(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh). And you are saying that God did it for Moses(pbuh) ( for the Jews ) only.

Show me anywhere I said anything like that or have the decency to stop taking me out of context or claiming I said things which I clearly did not.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Do you have reading difficulties? no one here claims that any theology is historical. this isnt' even the question. only you are going in circles around this question. the rest of us are not claiming any historicity of any scripture either way.

Show me anywhere I said anything like that or have the decency to stop taking me out of context or claiming I said things which I clearly did not.

Yes, those were not your exact words but let me show you how I came up with the conclusion ....

I answered the OP : "So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?" with the following :

Back to the very first thing I have stated. Islam would have evolved as in Islam -2 without Judaism and Christianity but it still would have existed.

You responded :

Where would it get the traditions about Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses? the People of Israel? David? Solomon? the Exodus? Parables which originated in the Talmud? even stories about fallen angels Harut and Marut?

I responded with what I believe is True :

From 'God' where it all started and from where all the Prophets got it. Qur'an didn't get it from Talmud - Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) got it from Allah(God), the same way Moses(pbuh) got it from God at his time and the same way Jesus(pbuh) got it from God at his time.

You responded :

...
When I write my postgraduate assignments, I can't say what I want. I have to base my thesis on facts, on academic references, and present it as something that can be accepted in a peer reviewed environment. Given, I understand it takes more effort than saying 'God did it'...

That is when I brought up "God speaking to Moses(pbuh) as described in Exodus 3" because what you stated in your last post(as quoted above) is essentially saying that - God gave Muhammad(pbuh) those information is not an acceptable answer to the question : Where did Islam/Qur'an get the information(for example, story of Moses(pbuh) Exodus 3 and many others) which Judaism/Jews got it from God to begin with ?

Now you should see why I brought up double standard and where I got that idea from. I don't say different things in different threads - I have just one belief. So if I believe that it all started from God and then it was written down as History, I'll admit that in all the threads. That's why I repeatedly said, even though some stories in the Qur'an existed in the earlier scriptures but it is not based on them. It's just God just repeated the same message again in the Qur'an to Muhammad(pbuh) and yet there are significant differences in the details of those stories as I have mentioned earlier.

Peace.

 

[beerisit]

loveroftruth I think the Op was suggesting that the stories of earlier religions gave Islam credibility. Without said earlier stories the possibility of Islam being accepted is seriously diminished, you must see that. For instance who would believe these stories from thousands of years earlier if Muhammad had just brought them to people from his cave? Whether they came from Gabriel or not is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP, in my opinion.

 

[loverOfTruth]

loveroftruth I think the Op was suggesting that the stories of earlier religions gave Islam credibility. Without said earlier stories the possibility of Islam being accepted is seriously diminished, you must see that. For instance who would believe these stories from thousands of years earlier if Muhammad had just brought them to people from his cave? Whether they came from Gabriel or not is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP, in my opinion.

How did the Jews at the time of Moses(pbuh) believe in the message of Moses(pbuh) without the stories of earlier religions ? People are people - they would question as well as believe with or without history/evidence. Skepticism transcends time and place.

And as I stated earlier, it did make muslims life simpler but Islam would have existed without any problem just like Judaism did at the time of Moses(pbuh) and on wards.

 

[beerisit]

How did the Jews at the time of Moses(pbuh) believe in the message of Moses(pbuh) without the stories of earlier religions ? People are people - they would question as well as believe with or without history/evidence. Skepticism transcends time and place.

And as I stated, it did make muslims life simpler but Islam would have existed without any problem just like Judaism did at the time of Moses(pbuh) and on wards.

No the Hebrews already had an oral tradition of those stories, they weren't being asked to suddenly jump to belief in stories thousands of years old without any prior knowledge of those stories.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No the Hebrews already had an oral tradition of those stories, they weren't being asked to suddenly jump to belief in stories thousands of years old without any prior knowledge of those stories.

You mean the 10 commandments that God gave to Moses ?