Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[gnostic]

Since those stories are in fact Judaism and Christianity, then I would have to disagree. The hypothetical part of the question concerned just that, if those religions and therefore those stories did not exist, then would anybody believe Muhammad when he brought those stories from the cave? That to me is the essence of the OP. If the OP author is available and wishes to correct me then I will stand corrected. But to engage in the discussion of the OP and then claim that the basis of the hypothetical can be challenged doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Without those religions we wouldn't have the stories, because we don't have them anywhere else now. The stories were completely relient on those religions before Islam.

, :no: (Oh, no), beerisit. You're (as well as Caladan and YmirGF) on the right track. it is hypothesis that if everything in Judaism and Christianity didn't exist, which would include every individual books & letters, every traditions, biblical figures (from Adam to Jesus' last disciples/authors, but would also include angels with names), then Islam could not possibly exist.

How could it?

What loveroftruth, Godobeyer, f0uad and other Muslims that replied here don't understand is how much Muhammad and Islam are indebted to all the traditions that went before it. They are relying on the all-powerful god-did-it assumption, therefore without any thinking what the OP is actually saying; hence they provided the usual no-brainer answers.

They also don't know where/when the names of angels (like Gabriel) originated. They were invented names, out of the Jewish contact with Zoroastrianism.

Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem, but in particular his journey to see the various heavens as given in the Hadith, is like Enoch's visit to heavens, as narrated in both books of Enoch. The books of Enoch were written in the 2nd century BCE (Hellenistic period), and was clearly not written by Enoch. These books also influenced Christian teachings, just as it had clearly Islamic teachings.

No, beerisit. You're not wrong with your understanding of my original question.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think Christianity or Judaism brought any ''Credibility'' at-least among the people the Prophet(saws) lived the majority were pagans so he was actually going against what other people claimed and therefore was banished out of Mecca, later when he travelled to Medina where he met jews yes they actually confirmed hes message to be true and many converted.

Oh, don't be silly. Jews and Christians have been around for quite some time in the Arabian peninsula, so their teachings were not unheard of, even before Muhammad was born.

Muhammad was a trader before his calling, so he couldn't heard tales from Jews and Christians, even if Muhammad couldn't read. Most Jews and Christians (who couldn't read) learned through oral tradition and through public reading.

You're being naive to think, or to believe the propaganda, that Muhammad knew nothing about these religions before he became a prophet.

 

[F0uad]

Oh, don't be silly. Jews and Christians have been around for quite some time in the Arabian peninsula, so their teachings were not unheard of, even before Muhammad was born.

Muhammad was a trader before his calling, so he couldn't heard tales from Jews and Christians, even if Muhammad couldn't read. Most Jews and Christians (who couldn't read) learned through oral tradition and through public reading.

You're being naive to think, or to believe the propaganda, that Muhammad knew nothing about these religions before he became a prophet.

First of all did you know what i actually said or are you just refusing to read.

To address your point:
Off-course Mohammed(saws) knew about Christians and Jews heck they were the first to see the prophet-hood on hes shoulders according to Hadiths. He was even raised by hes Uncle(or grand-father) not sure which one but he was a heretic Christian after hes parents died at young age.

Does it change the fact that the majority of Mecca were pagans who didn't want to have anything of Monotheism, Judaism or Christianity and actually fought the Jews in Medina because of there religion, and if the Christians and Jews were not in those small numbers in Mecca to even bother they would also have been wiped out?

Why would they even kick him out... its because of hes Belief in One-God and upholding the previous scriptures and getting more followers of Pagans turning into Muslims and saying that there is One-God and not 360.

Muslims also never claimed that the Quran is something new, but its a book that has fixed the errors of the past scriptures and nothing else.

Next time quote my whole post before trying to make your point.

 

[garrydons]

Regardless of the question of Islam existing or not. I think that it should benefit every Muslim to understand the context of Qur'anic narratives, and in order to do so they need to understand their original form in the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish Talmud and Midrash. that's at least from Judaism's part. there is also the Christian context.
It's important to remember that Muhammad and other Arabs had contact with Jews, they heared the Jewish Torah readings, and language and discussions which may have been spiced in Biblical or other Jewish teachings. the Qur'an did not spring one day out of nowhere containing all these Biblical stories and other Jewish narratives and parables.

Shalom! I agree with your statement.

In my personal view, there could be no islam without Judaism. How could one say that even without Judaism, islam could exist. The fact is, both Islam and Christianity came from Judaism. And Islam acknowledged that the God they knew is the God of Israel (although Judaism looks it differently). And the Torah is holy, just and good in its original writings. Yes, there might be mistranslations along the way. It is for the student of the Bible to check this out.

 

[Bismillah]

Each is a natural and decreed step by Allah, it is pointless to ask about "what ifs" as what is important is the actual.

 

[Bismillah]

Off-course Mohammed(saws) knew about Christians and Jews heck they were the first to see the prophet-hood on hes shoulders according to Hadiths. He was even raised by hes Uncle(or grand-father) not sure which one but he was a heretic Christian after hes parents died at young age.

Are you speaking of Waraqah? He was a Christian priest and also a Hanafi or monotheist who, when Khadijah bought the Prophet to, said that the Prophet had been revealed a Shari'ah as Moses had before him.

 

[F0uad]

Are you speaking of Waraqah? He was a Christian priest and also a Hanafi or monotheist who, when Khadijah bought the Prophet to, said that the Prophet had been revealed a Shari'ah as Moses had before him.

I think i am mixing things.. but Abī Tālib was a Christian?

 

[YmirGF]

Are you speaking of Waraqah? He was a Christian priest and also a Hanafi or monotheist who, when Khadijah bought the Prophet to, said that the Prophet had been revealed a Shari'ah as Moses had before him.

That would be my guess as well. I wonder how much Khadijah paid him?

 

[F0uad]

That would be my guess as well. I wonder how much Khadijah paid him?

He miss-typed he meant to say ''Brought'' and if its Bought he better quote the source:areyoucra



Back to the topic: I would say that Christianity and Judaism could have never existed without Islam.
Any Christian or Jew denying there prophets being Muslim is fooling themselves when they know that the definition of Muslim means: Submission to god (And nothing else)

 

[Bismillah]

I think i am mixing things.. but Abī Tālib was a Christian before he became a muslim right?

Are you refrencing Abu Talib the uncle and guardian of the Prophet? Is so he was an influential leader among the Quraysh and though there is some dispute as to his creed at time of death, he was not a Christian.

There are those who say that Abu Talib was a polytheist and died as such as he did not want to leave the religion of his fathers and there are others who say that he did indeed convert (I think but am not positive that the former is the more correct view).

 

[Bismillah]

That would be my guess as well. I wonder how much Khadijah paid him?

I was confused until I realized my mistake, foud is correct.

 

[F0uad]

Are you refrencing Abu Talib the uncle and guardian of the Prophet? Is so he was an influential leader among the Quraysh and though there is some dispute as to his creed at time of death, he was not a Christian.

There are those who say that Abu Talib was a polytheist and died as such as he did not want to leave the religion of his fathers and there are others who say that he did indeed convert (I think but am not positive that the former is the more correct view).

I see and thanks that actually supports my case in my previous messages :beach:

 

[YmirGF]

He miss-typed he meant to say ''Brought'' and if its Bought he better quote the source:areyoucra

You probably won't believe me, but I didn't notice the typo, LOL.

Back to the topic: I would say that Christianity and Judaism could have never existed without Islam.
Any Christian or Jew denying there prophets being Muslim is fooling themselves when they know that the definition of Muslim means: Submission to god (And nothing else)

That is absurd. It is absolutely mind-numbing to see Muslims try to insert their teachings into the historical mythology as those historical figures are unable to dispute the claims. (I.E. They were dead and therefore fairly silent.)

If what you are saying really is true, would you not think that people would have flocked to Muhammad from the very beginning? They didn't. It was because what he preached was at variance with their long held beliefs that he encountered considerable resistance, so much so that he was practically run out of Mecca.

 

[YmirGF]

I was confused until I realized my mistake, foud is correct.

He IS correct on this point. I was sidetracked by your reference to Waraqa Ibn Nawfal. (Which according to the historical record, is also true, it's just not the point that F0uad was making - which, according to the historical record -- is also true.)

Forgive me, but it IS hard for non-Muslims to keep all this stuff straight. I do try though.

 

[Bismillah]

If what you are saying really is true, would you not think that people would have flocked to Muhammad from the very beginning? They didn't. It was because what he preached was at variance with their long held beliefs that he encountered considerable resistance, so much so that he was practically run out of Mecca.

While what he preached was at variance of their long held beliefs, these beliefs were not of the Abrahamic variety they were the polytheistic Arab traditions. Furthermore it was more because of the threat to the Arab oligarchy that the Quraysh held as the guardians of Kaaba than for the preaching itself, as they many times offered to compromise and even accept the Prophet's teachings in return for him accepting theirs.

Forgive me, but it IS hard for non-Muslims to keep all this stuff straight. I do try though.

If it's any solace you do an exceptional job, now what would be impressive is if you knew the Prophet's genealogy.

 

[YmirGF]

now what would be impressive is if you knew the Prophet's genealogy.

How far back? To Adam, Ishmael or al-Nather bin Kinaneh? It is a small quibble on my part, but I am not the slightest bit impressed by the alleged credibility of these genealogical claims.

 

[arthra]

According to tradtion the Prophet was descended from Abraham and Hagar..through Ishmael...

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation"

~ Genesis 17:20

The great nation is the Ummah...

Ummah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[YmirGF]

According to tradtion the Prophet was descended from Abraham and Hagar..through Ishmael...

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation"

~ Genesis 17:20

The great nation is the Ummah...

Ummah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Admittedly, it is a great PR stunt, but likely, little more.

 

[kai]

According to tradtion the Prophet was descended from Abraham and Hagar..through Ishmael...

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation"

~ Genesis 17:20

The great nation is the Ummah...

Ummah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this may be of interest;

Jewish, Christian and pagan communities of Medina bringing them within the fold of one community—the Ummah.

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[YmirGF]

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That certainly looked good on paper, but it didn't work out too well for the Jews.