Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[beerisit]

Do you see what the OP is saying? If there had been absolutely no history of the stories of Adam and Abraham and Moses before Muhammad brought those stories back from the cave to a people who worshipped a pantheon of Pagan Gods would anyone have believed him?

 

[beerisit]

You mean the 10 commandments that God gave to Moses ?

No I don't, see above.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you see what the OP is saying? If there had been absolutely no history of the stories of Adam and Abraham and Moses before Muhammad brought those stories back from the cave to a people who worshipped a pantheon of Pagan Gods would anyone have believed him?

What is amusing here is that, even with the buttressing of Christianity and Judaism, most did not believe him for the first several years.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Do you see what the OP is saying? If there had been absolutely no history of the stories of Adam and Abraham and Moses before Muhammad brought those stories back from the cave to a people who worshipped a pantheon of Pagan Gods would anyone have believed him?

But you are forgetting that it is a hypothetical question. So if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist ... the stories could have (hypothetically) floated through other means to Arabia since Adam, Noah, Abraham and all the other prophets also came from the same God.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No I don't, see above.

So how did the Jews believe in the 10 commandments without prior history of such things ?

 

[YmirGF]

But you are forgetting that it is a hypothetical question. So if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist ... the stories could have (hypothetically) floated through other means to Arabia since Adam, Noah, Abraham and all the other prophets also came from the same God.

Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it is very probable.

 

[beerisit]

What is amusing here is that, even with the buttressing of Christianity and Judaism, most did not believe him for the first several years.

I believe in took decades, I could be corrected on this, of continuous revelations before it took a foothold. But the point is, the very real boost up supplied by the earlier religions I think is what the OP is suggesting.

 

[loverOfTruth]

What is amusing here is that, even with the buttressing of Christianity and Judaism, most did not believe him for the first several years.

Precisely my point. Those who believe don't need the support of Christianity and Judaism to believe as the modern times will witness to that fact.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Just because something is possible doesn't mean that it is very probable.

How probable is the option of Judaism and Christianity not existing as stated in the OP?

 

[beerisit]

But you are forgetting that it is a hypothetical question. So if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist ... the stories could have (hypothetically) floated through other means to Arabia since Adam, Noah, Abraham and all the other prophets also came from the same God.

No you can't have your cake and eat it too, the stories of the previous religions are the cornerstone of Islam as told by Gabriel, according to Islam. The OP is suggesting that if those stories just suddenly appeared, then the chances of them being believed by the people Muhammad presented them too would in all likelyhood not have been accepted by those people. The FACT that those stories had been known for thousands of years already gave them credence that the might not otherwise have had. At least that is my reading of the OP. I don't think you can claim those stories would have existed without the traditions of the earlier religions.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No you can't have your cake and eat it too, the stories of the previous religions are the cornerstone of Islam as told by Gabriel, according to Islam. The OP is suggesting that if those stories just suddenly appeared, then the chances of them being believed by the people Muhammad presented them too would in all likelyhood not have been accepted by those people. The FACT that those stories had been known for thousands of years already gave them credence that the might not otherwise have had. At least that is my reading of the OP. I don't think you can claim those stories would have existed without the traditions of the earlier religions.

All I am saying is that without Judaism and Christianity we would still have the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, and many more (minus the stories Moses and Jesus) through other means (again hypothetically).

 

[beerisit]

Since those stories are in fact Judaism and Christianity, then I would have to disagree. The hypothetical part of the question concerned just that, if those religions and therefore those stories did not exist, then would anybody believe Muhammad when he brought those stories from the cave? That to me is the essence of the OP. If the OP author is available and wishes to correct me then I will stand corrected. But to engage in the discussion of the OP and then claim that the basis of the hypothetical can be challenged doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Without those religions we wouldn't have the stories, because we don't have them anywhere else now. The stories were completely relient on those religions before Islam.

 

[Uragand-2]

I believe the Quran says that many past "revelations" have been sent to people of the world, even those which are considered outside the fold of the Abrahamic faiths, and that those revelations are a part of a universal religion called "Islam".

So Islam might have came into being, but it might have taken on a different worldview than the Semitic one from which Christianity and Judaism derived.

 

[YmirGF]

Precisely my point. Those who believe don't need the support of Christianity and Judaism to believe as the modern times will witness to that fact.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Would you care to rephrase?

 

[YmirGF]

I believe the Quran says that many past "revelations" have been sent to people of the world, even those which are considered outside the fold of the Abrahamic faiths, and that those revelations are a part of a universal religion called "Islam".

This is rubbish. Imagine if you will, a fellow standing on the streets of Mecca, telling people about "prophets" he does not name, who told their "peoples" the listener has never heard of, were giving the same message he was. It's more than a bit of a leap.

So Islam might have came into being, but it might have taken on a different worldview than the Semitic one from which Christianity and Judaism derived.

Given that the Arabs are a Semitic people, that is a fairly peculiar notion. Dovetailing a new mythology upon an existing mythology is one thing, creating a brand new mythology is something quite different. Without the existing "prophetic" lineage, to insert himself into, Mohammad would not have had the foundation upon which to rest his authority.

 

[beerisit]

I believe the Quran says that many past "revelations" have been sent to people of the world, even those which are considered outside the fold of the Abrahamic faiths, and that those revelations are a part of a universal religion called "Islam".

So Islam might have came into being, but it might have taken on a different worldview than the Semitic one from which Christianity and Judaism derived.

Is there any mention in the Qu'ran of these other revelations? For instance have any of the prophets sent to Hindus or Confucionists or Zoroastrians or Taoists been mentioned or their messages? I don't know that is why I'm asking you. There well may be, if so I'd be happy if you would share.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. Would you care to rephrase?

Meaning, since at the present time Islam has the best backup (more believable than it would have been without those 2 religions) of Judaism and Christianity from the historical records/earlier scriptures (as you are claiming), and yet not everyone is a Muslim. Yet on the flip side, so many people who have no clue about history or earlier scriptures and yet they choose to accept Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

Meaning, since at the present time Islam has the best backup (more believable than it would have been without those 2 religions) of Judaism and Christianity from the historical records/earlier scriptures (as you are claiming), and yet not everyone is a Muslim. Yet on the flip side, so many people who have no clue about history or earlier scriptures and yet they choose to accept Islam.

Appeal to numbers and appeal to authority fallacy in two short sentences. Impressive.

 

[F0uad]

loveroftruth I think the Op was suggesting that the stories of earlier religions gave Islam credibility. Without said earlier stories the possibility of Islam being accepted is seriously diminished, you must see that. For instance who would believe these stories from thousands of years earlier if Muhammad had just brought them to people from his cave? Whether they came from Gabriel or not is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP, in my opinion.

I don't think Christianity or Judaism brought any ''Credibility'' at-least among the people the Prophet(saws) lived the majority were pagans so he was actually going against what other people claimed and therefore was banished out of Mecca, later when he travelled to Medina where he met jews yes they actually confirmed hes message to be true and many converted.

Its the same with Jesus(p) yet those people the ''jews'' believed already in One-God and were still practising the laws as Moses(p) had taught them while on the other hand Mohammed(saws) was announcing these words to Pagans who had a stronghold in Mecca and they hated him for that, wanted to kill him for it and actually killed many of hes companions and family. So i don't see where Christianity or Judaism had any ''Credibility'' in Mecca, maybe Medina but certainly not Mecca.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Appeal to numbers and appeal to authority fallacy in two short sentences. Impressive.

Red herring