Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[loverOfTruth]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

The scriptures that narrated the lives of Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and to the kings, the survivors of the Exile in Babylon to the construction of the Second Temple (in the Tanakh) and the lives of Jesus and Paul.

So without Abraham and Ishmael, there would be no Muhammad.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity? Absolutely.

The word 'Islam' literally means 'Submission to God'. In its simplest form Islam is neither a new religion nor is it exclusively for the Muslims. The essence of Islam is pure, pure, pure monotheism - that is "There is no god but GOD", meaning there is only ONE GOD with no partners. According to Islam, that same message has been conveyed to humanity throughout the history of mankind via God's messengers - all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Noah(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH), Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). So without Judaism and Christianity, it will be Islam -2

An interesting point to note ...
* Did Moses(pbuh) use the word 'Judaism' ? I am not sure but would like to find out. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Jesus(pbuh) use the word 'Christianity' ? As far as I know - no. Feel free to correct me on that. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use the word 'Islam'. Absolutely - not only did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use it, the Qur'an says that the other prophets did too : "Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Al-Qur'an 2:133)

 

[Godobeyer]

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity? Absolutely.

The word 'Islam' literally means 'Submission to God'. In its simplest form Islam is neither a new religion nor is it exclusively for the Muslims. The essence of Islam is pure, pure, pure monotheism - that is "There is no god but GOD", meaning there is only ONE GOD with no partners. According to Islam, that same message has been conveyed to humanity throughout the history of mankind via God's messengers - all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Noah(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH), Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). So without Judaism and Christianity, it will be Islam -2

An interesting point to note ...
* Did Moses(pbuh) use the word 'Judaism' ? I am not sure but would like to find out. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Jesus(pbuh) use the word 'Christianity' ? As far as I know - no. Feel free to correct me on that. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use the word 'Islam'. Absolutely - not only did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use it, the Qur'an says that the other prophets did too : "Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Al-Qur'an 2:133)

good reply :clap, i hope will find good minds to understand it

 

[Marco19]

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

No Christianity without Judaism, and No Islam without Christianity.

NOTE: in Quran entire verse titled "verse of Mary", and Moses mentioned more than Muhamed.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No Christianity without Judaism, and No Islam without Christianity.

NOTE: in Quran entire verse titled "verse of Mary", and Moses mentioned more than Muhamed.

Well, not quite - if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist - you just wouldn't have found mentions of Jesus, Mary & Moses in the Quran to begin with and then your comment wouldn't make any sense either.

 

[gnostic]

Allah in the Quran ,did not deny that He sent messangers to the jews , Jesus (pbuh) is the last one .
Islam is mean : submission to God , all the messangers and prophets that God sent , they had this message .
which mean , all the messangers and prophets are muslims .

Godobeyer. Have you read the Hebrew Bible or the Christian one?

As important as the prophets were, a large part of the "revelation" involved in the people, more specific the people (or the tribes) of Israel.

The Exodus. God sent the plagues and kill the firstborn of Egypt, parted the Red Sea (more likely the sea of reeds). All these happened to free all 12 tribes of Israel, and not just Moses, Joshua and their immediate families.

And the Torah (law) was made for the people, not just for Moses and the other prophets.

etc, etc, etc.

And the people of Israel were descendants of Jacob, because Israel was the other name for Jacob, which he earned for winning a wrestling match against an angel (Genesis 32:28). The covenant that God say Abraham's descendants would have, was the same one that Isaac and Jacob. And this covenant was eventually with Joshua bringing the Israelite into Canaan. This covenant (for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) had nothing to do with Christianity, with Islam or with resurrection/afterlife, which is the main focus of Christianity and Islam (referring to the afterlife).

So since the covenant was to Jacob's descendants, the whole thing would unravel with Christianity and Islam, if Judaism didn't exist.

 

[Marco19]

Well, not quite - if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist - you just wouldn't have found mentions of Jesus, Mary & Moses in the Quran to begin with and then your comment wouldn't make any sense either.

Correct! Quran wouldn't be the same as we have it today ... and many other things.

 

[gnostic]

Well, not quite - if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist - you just wouldn't have found mentions of Jesus, Mary & Moses in the Quran to begin with and then your comment wouldn't make any sense either.

Hence, the hypothetical "what if..." questions.

But not only Moses, there wouldn't be Abraham, Ishmael, David and Solomon, who also figure prominently in the Qur'an. There would also be no Adam or Noah in the Qur'an.

 

[YmirGF]

Hence, the hypothetical "what if..." questions.

But not only Moses, there wouldn't be Abraham, Ishmael, David and Solomon, who also figure prominently in the Qur'an. There would also be no Adam or Noah in the Qur'an.

Likewise, people would have just sat slack-jawed as Muhammad chattered on about his meeting with Gabriel, as Gabriel would not be a part of the historical record.

Given that so much of Muhammad's stature rests on the backs of those before him, who were in no position to cast doubt on his claims, his role would, necessarily, be considerably diminished to the extent that his movement would have likely been still-borne.

 

[gnostic]

Given that so much of Muhammad's stature rests on the backs of those before him, who were in no position to cast doubt on his claims, his role would, necessarily, be considerably diminished to the extent that his movement would have likely been still-borne.

Exactly.

Likewise, people would have just sat slack-jawed as Muhammad chattered on about his meeting with Gabriel, as Gabriel would not be a part of the historical record.

What Muslims seemed to don't understand is that Gabriel and Michael were invented names. In all past writings (meaning, prior to the Exile), all angels were nameless, including that of Satan.

 

[Caladan]

Caladan wrote:

In regard to this. It's valuable to remember that before Islam, Allah was a member of a Pagan local pantheon, in fact Allah was the head of the Arab pantheon which also included the daughters of Allah

My own view is that Allah is related to the Hebrew..

See the wikipedia article:

The term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ʾilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God" (ὁ θεὸς μόνος, ho theos monos).[8] Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic.[9] Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural form (but functional singular) Elohim. The corresponding Aramaic form is ʼĔlāhā ܐܠܗܐ in Biblical Aramaic and ʼAlâhâ ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ in Syriac as used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God".[10] In the Sikh scriptures, Guru Granth Sahib, the term Allah (Punjabi: ਅਲਹ&#2625 is used 46 times respectively.

I am sorry arthra. but what does it have to do with local Arab pantheons in pre-Islamic times? even the Qur'an talks about the fact that the Arabs worshipped Lat, Uzza, and Manat (Sura 53). Allah was a chief god in this pantheon. moreoever, it is known that the Kaaba was a central pagan site before it was converted into a similar Islamic use.

 

[Caladan]

An interesting point to note ...
* Did Moses(pbuh) use the word 'Judaism' ? I am not sure but would like to find out. So what did he name the religion he preached ?

You are asking the wrong question. are you saying that the term 'Jew' did not exist before Islam? it most certainly did for centuries before the emergence of Islam. if you want to follow the Biblical narrative (not a very academic thing to do), then your answer is simple, the people were called Israel as a whole, and Judah was but one tribe of the entire nation.

 

[Godobeyer]

You are asking the wrong question. are you saying that the term 'Jew' did not exist before Islam? it most certainly did for centuries before the emergence of Islam. if you want to follow the Biblical narrative (not a very academic thing to do), then your answer is simple, the people were called Israel as a whole, and Judah was but one tribe of the entire nation.

as i know Adam(pbuh) ,Noah (pbuh),Ayoub (pbuh) , and Ibrahim (pbuh) were not jewish prophets .
, the Jacob (pbuh) is the first jewish prophet , and Moses( pbuh) , Solomo..... Jesus (pbuh) were jewish prophets

 

[gnostic]

To loverOfTruth, Godobeyer and Arthra.

Likewise, people would have just sat slack-jawed as Muhammad chattered on about his meeting with Gabriel, as Gabriel would not be a part of the historical record.

What Muslims seemed to don't understand is that Gabriel and Michael were invented names. In all past writings (meaning, prior to the Exile), all angels were nameless, including that of Satan.

The real origin of these 2 archangels come from 6th century BCE, during (possibly?) or most likely after the Exile at Babylon (eg. Second Temple Period, 532 BCE - 70 CE). Before then, no angels were ever given names in early Judaism (Judaism before the Exile).

These exiles encountered Persian religion - Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism not only have name for angels (and demons), but the angels have hierarchy and ranks.

Judaism began to adopt Persian flavour with angels (as well as Greek flavour later, which I will mention more later). Gabriel and Michael were named for the 1st time, in the Book of Daniel. Satan was also named around this same time for the 1st time.

In fact, early in the Second Temple Period and before the Hellenistic period, Satan was seen as agent of God, with specific duty - to test man's faith, like in the Book of Job. In Job, Satan wasn't evil, he was actually obeying God's commandment.

There were no evidences of any rebellion in heaven, prior to the Exile. This is where it was influenced by Greek religion, which resulted in the further change to Judaism: Hellenistic Judaism. By 2nd century BCE, Satan was undergoing a personality change from an agent of god to enemy of god, by the time 1st century CE.

Remove all the Judaeo-Christian scriptures, then Gabriel, Michael and Satan wouldn't exist in the Qur'an.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You are asking the wrong question. are you saying that the term 'Jew' did not exist before Islam? it most certainly did for centuries before the emergence of Islam. if you want to follow the Biblical narrative (not a very academic thing to do), then your answer is simple, the people were called Israel as a whole, and Judah was but one tribe of the entire nation.

No. I was just asking about the term 'Judaism'.

 

[loverOfTruth]

To loverOfTruth, Godobeyer and Arthra.

The real origin of these 2 archangels come from 6th century BCE, during (possibly?) or most likely after the Exile at Babylon (eg. Second Temple Period, 532 BCE - 70 CE). Before then, no angels were ever given names in early Judaism (Judaism before the Exile).
...
Remove all the Judaeo-Christian scriptures, then Gabriel, Michael and Satan wouldn't exist in the Qur'an.

Who added it?

 

[gnostic]

No. I was just asking about the term 'Judaism'.

* Did Moses(pbuh) use the word 'Judaism' ? I am not sure but would like to find out. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Jesus(pbuh) use the word 'Christianity' ? As far as I know - no. Feel free to correct me on that. So what did he name the religion he preached ?
* Did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use the word 'Islam'. Absolutely - not only did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use it, the Qur'an says that the other prophets did too : "Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (Al-Qur'an 2:133)

Don't be so provincial, loveroftruth.

Whether or not Moses gave the Hebrew religion a name (Judaism), or whether Jesus coined the name for Christianity or not, is absolutely meaningless as well as irrelevant.

I have researched many ancient religions and read their scriptures or myths. Very few do provide names, but a large majority don't.

The answers are :no: and :no: to your questions.

You have to remember that neither the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh), nor the Christian Bible is just one book or one work. They are actually collection of books, letters or poems, not necessarily written by the same person or even at the same time.

When you consider that, I believe it would absolutely stupid for anyone (who wrote them) to actually NAME THE RELIGION.

Just because neither founders didn't provide the NAMES FOR THE RELIGIONS, doesn't mean the religions don't exist or that they weren't earlier than Islam.

The fact, is Islam (including the Qur'an) didn't exist prior to Muhammad's supposed calling, historically, grammatically or evidentially.

Muslims who claimed Islam (and the Qur'an ) existed before Adam or Abraham, are just basing it upon baseless faith and their religious agenda to promote islam as the only true religion, hence propaganda and misinformation.

 

[Caladan]

as i know Adam(pbuh) ,Noah (pbuh),Ayoub (pbuh) , and Ibrahim (pbuh) were not jewish prophets .
, the Jacob (pbuh) is the first jewish prophet , and Moses( pbuh) , Solomo..... Jesus (pbuh) were jewish prophets

No. I was just asking about the term 'Judaism'.

Let me ask it again. do you recognize that there were Jews in existence before Islam? because this is what the OP is discussing. it doesn't ask if Adam or Noah were Jews. as even the Hebrew Bible will tell you that not all the Biblical protagonists were Israelites.

 

[gnostic]

as i know Adam(pbuh) ,Noah (pbuh),Ayoub (pbuh) , and Ibrahim (pbuh) were not jewish prophets .
, the Jacob (pbuh) is the first jewish prophet , and Moses( pbuh) , Solomo..... Jesus (pbuh) were jewish prophets

Like caladan wrote, it is not about who were the 1st Israelite prophets or not. and yes I am aware that the line from Adam to Isaac, these patriarchs weren't Israelites.

I am neither Christian nor Jew. So none of them are my religion. However, I do read from the point-of-view as they ("they" as in the scriptures) are being literatures and myths.

And since the author of the Genesis have been attributed to Moses, the founder of early Judaism being an Israelite. And that being the case then, Genesis is about the origin of Israel, about Jacob and his ancestors.

I don't see your point, Godobeyer. Because your point sound hypocritical or double-standard. Because I could ask similar questions to you.

Muhammad was an Arab. Why didn't the Qur'an just include only stories from Ishmael-Muhammad line? Why did the Qur'an include stories from Isaac and Jacob to Solomon, and about Mary and Jesus? All of whom, who weren't Muslims or Arabs.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think so. If you believe Muhammad copied ideas from those religions, then obviously it would not exist. But if you believe, as Muslims do, that those other religions are earlier versions of Islam that became corrupt over time and that the Quran is in fact the word of God, then I guess the answer is yes.

So it is a 50/50 question of "what if...?"

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hence, the hypothetical "what if..." questions.

But not only Moses, there wouldn't be Abraham, Ishmael, David and Solomon, who also figure prominently in the Qur'an. There would also be no Adam or Noah in the Qur'an.

That is incorrect because it is assuming Qur'an copied the information about those prophets from the OT and NT, which is not the case. Whether (hypothetically) Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) came with the message or not doesn't change the fact that Adam(pbuh) still existed before them.