Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[outhouse]

Read Matthew, trust your heart to interprete what he said.

Really?

So we should blindly trust some Hellenist who never knew, or met Jesus and taught with some very anti Semitic teachings?

Screw what people Tell you, even me..

I don't think that will be hard to follow.


But for the rest of the world, don't you think education and knowledge should be learned to place this time period and authors work into context?

A better informed opinion is better?

just trust your heart and you know that Jesus has lessons to teach. That's why he did what he did, to create friction in the world

 

[columbus]

Then I would ask.

What treasonous teaching do you think Jesus taught?

God(Yahweh) is the true ruler of Judea.

That's all it would take to qualify as a rebel. Enough to justify crucifixion, if Pontius Pilate were calling the shots.

Of course, Jesus would also have been attempting to threaten the Jewish high folk. So they would have reason to accuse Jesus of crimes against the state, even if He really were just an itinerant social reformer.

Tom

 

[outhouse]

God(Yahweh) is the true ruler of Judea.

That's all it would take to qualify as a rebel. Enough to justify crucifixion, if Pontius Pilate were calling the shots.

Of course, Jesus would also have been attempting to threaten the Jewish high folk. So they would have reason to accuse Jesus of crimes against the state, even if He really were just an itinerant social reformer.

Tom

Where does Jesus teach that Yahweh was the ruler of all Judea?


The unknown authors of the NT didn't even use that term, as they were not Jews, but rather Hellenist.

 

[columbus]

Where does Jesus teach that Yahweh was the ruler of all Judea?


The unknown authors of the NT didn't even use that term, as they were not Jews, but rather Hellenist.

Nobody knows what Jesus taught. All we have is what a handful of people attribute to Him.

What we do have now is a better understanding of the context than even first century Judeans had.

Tom

 

[oldbadger]

The geography question has been refuted by many apologist, just not with any credibility.

You asked me to refute the Bethany Bethpage so called 'mix-up', and the Northern 'dogleg' travels of Yeshua. I did refute this rubbish. Bethpage is not upon the Jericho-Jerusalem road, nor is it's position exactly known.

You need to answer this with a case. You never seem to put your own case, always some other person's ........

Well?

 

[oldbadger]

I read something by Isaac Asimov fleshing out the theory

OK..... Let's look at it.......

Suppose Jesus were a terrorist? Or a freedom-fighter, if you oppose the Roman occupation of Judea.

..... Jesus lived in Galilee..... no Romans in Galilee..... OK?

An occupying empire and a puppet government against weak but determined Jewish resistance, with the majority of people just trying to get along in difficult and confusing times.

....... Yes... this was Galilee..... a puppet ruler fleecing the populace for a big tribute to Rome, plus his own fat pocket.

This explains all sorts of otherwise confusing things, from the noticeable lack of personal history to Pilate executing Jesus with a method usually reserved for rebel slaves and traitors to the Empire.

....... At Yeshua's execution two criminals were reportedly also executed, so this method was not reserved for only rebels and traitors....... OK?

It explains the lack of writing for the first few decades after Jesus' death,

........ No...... they didn't have literacy in Galilee...... they used Oral Tradition to pass on and down their history and tales.....

as His followers were expecting God to deliver them the victory they were striving to achieve.

.... I don't think. Let's go to the next sentence.

Then along came Paul, who for some reason picked up Christianity as useful. The original Apostles were hardly going to tell Paul the truth, what with his background in suppressing dissent. So Paul wound up creating a whole new religion based on a garbled version of what Jesus said in public. As Paul's fame grew the Apostles had works written that pointedly did not include Paul. Voila, the synoptic Gospels.

Bingo. I think that this is quite close. I am coming to believe that Saul was not putting down christians! He might have been putting down factions that supported or had supported...John the Baptist. Then he heard about Yeshua, and it clicked into place for him, the chance to create JESUS the CHRIST. What d'you think? Possible?
And a close follower (Mark) of one of Yeshua's closest followers (Cephas) got clear and eventually compiled Cephas's, his own and other reports into G-MARK' which actually refuted Saul/Paul's stuff, and which by some incredible chance did not get burned.

Jesus must be spinning in His grave!

Jesus is a myth. Yeshua was real. I don't know if he was resigned or sad by it all...... don't know.

Tom

Thankyou for your suggestions.

 

[outhouse]

I did refute this rubbish. Bethpage is not upon the Jericho-Jerusalem road, nor is it's position exactly known.

Its position is not really disputed over where it is said to be, on the Jericho-Jerusalem road.

Just because you found a later map wirh a different location means nothing.


Gospel of Mark

This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

 

[oldbadger]

What you propose, doesn't make sense and Is not followed outside apologetic scholars.

Makes good sense. Show your case to contend against what I have suggested.

Its not cherry picking it is a decision based on the evidence, and intended audience Mark was written for.

Mark was not writing to his friends, he was writing to tell the truth to the World. A great compilation. Very strong. Make your case to contend against this....

If it was mark, he would not need to compile many sources and he would not have made so many errors regarding the events .

His compilation has very few errors, but there is evidence of tampering, to be sure.

 

[oldbadger]

I am.

I am asking you in all your expertise why a witness to the events would claim there was actually a trial?

Was your author a real Jew?

There was an arrest, there was a trial (of sorts) by the priesthood. There was an appeal to the Prefect to allow an execution. Which part of this do you have difficulty with, exactly?

 

[oldbadger]

Now if the author was a Galilean Jew like Jesus.

Being a more traditional Galilean Jew

Would he have used the Corrupt Hellenistic version of the OT the Septuagint?

You know the same people Jesus was fighting against in the temple?

Or would he have used the Hebrew version traditional Hebrews found importance and loyalty in?

Then explain why your unknown author was known to use the enemies version.

Please show an example ..... from G-Mark..... Can you do this?

 

[oldbadger]

What we do see, is a Galilean loosing his temper in the temple when tensions were high and peace was flat demanded.

No he did not........ his demonstration,. and his picketing of the Temple Courts lasted for three whole days, nt the brief heated episode that you have described previously.

This was a cold, calculated attempt (last ditch attempt) to win the people over or bust.

 

[oldbadger]

Yep, I don't think there should be any doubt that the Romans simply weren't gonna put up with anyone disrupting their money-making operations and causing trouble, That we know they simply didn't put up with, and it appears that Jesus and many others learned this the hard way.

I don't think that this is correct.

It was the Priesthood who did not want the Temple money-making operations disrupted. They carried out the arrest and then appealed for an execution, which only the Prefect could grant.

 

[oldbadger]

Rome didn't care what Jews believed about God. But they cared very much about treasonous teaching.
Strong evidence that Jesus was crucified for opposition to Roman rule, not a theological spat with the Sanhedrin.

Tom

ETA~ I was responding to outhouse, but a few posts appeared while I did so~

Yeshua was demonstration 'for the orking people' against a hypocritical quisling priesthood and internal rule in Galilee, mainly..... he just had to go to the Temple to try a new audience after failing in Galilee.

The Prefect actually needed persuading before giving the execution order.

 

[oldbadger]

God(Yahweh) is the true ruler of Judea.

That's all it would take to qualify as a rebel. Enough to justify crucifixion, if Pontius Pilate were calling the shots.

Of course, Jesus would also have been attempting to threaten the Jewish high folk. So they would have reason to accuse Jesus of crimes against the state, even if He really were just an itinerant social reformer.

Tom

No Tom....... The Romans wanted the Jewish religion and social system to continue.

 

[oldbadger]

Its position is not really disputed over where it is said to be, on the Jericho-Jerusalem road.

Just because you found a later map wirh a different location means nothing.

It means everything, since it was the only map offered that I could find. I did not cherry pick. Please show a map which shows Bethpage on the road.

 

[outhouse]

It means everything, since it was the only map offered that I could find. I did not cherry pick. Please show a map which shows Bethpage on the road.

Show the later map you provided is correct.



Because that is not where the village is.

 

[oldbadger]

Show the later map you provided is correct.

Because that is not where the village is.

Here is another huge map of NT times.
See Bethpage, in a similar position to that on the previous map, to the North or Bethany and OFF THE ROAD, on the Mount of Olives.

Your scholar was wrong. You need to accept this as new information.

 

[outhouse]

Here is another huge map of NT times.
See Bethpage, in a similar position to that on the previous map, to the North or Bethany and OFF THE ROAD, on the Mount of Olives.

Your scholar was wrong. You need to accept this as new information.

You have not proved that.

NO maps exsit from this time period, thus no maps can be used to determine Bethpages location.


Most place it on the road in question.

Bethphage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eusebius of Caesarea (Onom 58:13) located it on the Mount of Olives.[1] It was likely on the road from Jerusalem to Jericho and the limit of a Sabbath-day's journey from Jerusalem, that is, 2,000 cubits. There is the Franciscan Church of Bethphage at a likely location.



So now all professors and scholars and encyclopedias are all in error. :sarcastic

 

[indepth thinker]

It's not an original thought, but it hit me. What if Christianity is an offbrand, created by a beggar who claimed to be God for fortune? Obviously Jesus did not reveal to want fortune, in fact was very selfless and appeared as wanting to bring fortune to all others.

This simply could be an example of a homeless man expressing communism, not raising his fortune, but taking the small fortune of others altogether, then fractioning it down into equal fortune, and thus him too was given fortune and rose to a common social class.

I am very appreciative of Jesus, but don't view him as the same entity as God or the Holy Spirit (except if you consider my view of the Holy Spirit interconnecting all with God, that Man is Christ blessed with the holy spirit, btw not Christian, my theology includes this too add to its complication). However rude the question may seem, I think God allows me to question with no disrespect, having suddenly getting a more positive and paradigm shifting perspective on Abrahamic (specifically Christian) theology. So, in no way is this meant to disrespect Jesus or spit on his holiness.

Jesus never made the claim to be God, only Christians elevate Jesus to a God like status. Even Jesus is quoted as stating that his God was greater than he. I to am Not a Christian and share the understand you shared that the holy spirit interconnects all with God who are children of God. This was the concept that Jesus taught when he claimed to be one with God and that his Church would be one with him. It's also what he meant when he quoted an OT prophecy "they are so many Gods (Elohim) unto whom the spirit of God comes.

Jesus unlike the Christian (GOD LIKE) Version presented for much of Christian history, was a man born according to the flesh, just as you and I are born according to the flesh. Jesus, following the doctrine of repentance taught by John the Baptist, was the first to experience spiritual re-birth; (making him the firstborn from the dead). Once Jesus received the re-unification of soul with the spirit of God, began his ministry of taking light of truth to the Jews and Gentiles. After all, the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy specifically states when Messiah the prince would come. This prophecy does not point to the physical birth of the human Jesus, but the spiritual re-birth of Jesus at the start of his Messiah ministry.

Christians focus on the Few verses from the book of John which actually quote John the Baptist coining the phrase "Only Begotten". What Christians fail to realize is that after Pentecost, Many humans were born from the dead (Spiritual Re-birth). Jesus was no longer the Only begotten of God and word of God was spreading Via a spirit of truth by those who were true worshippers of God "in spirit and in truth".

The world began to slip back into spiritual famine when Satan deceived Saul on the road to Damascus, pretending to be Jesus and invoking a false conversion. This moment caused saul/paul to believe in Jesus, in less than in spirit and in truth. This deceiver then sent Saul/Paul on a false information campaign to bring about spiritual famine so that Satan could deceive the whole world, just as prophecy said would happen.

When a true prophet (Agabus) went to Antioch to meet the Christians of Paul, he prophesied a Famine through out all the world. This prophecy came true due to the Christians experiencing an incomplete conversion and spreading rumors and lies about the plan of salvation as though it were truth.

When the angel spoke to the followers of Jesus at the ascension of Jesus, the angel said Jesus would only return to the earth in the same manner he departed. Was the angel a liar? or did Paul really meet Jesus on the road? you decide. What is clear, is that Christianity lacks the spirit of truth that brings to remembrance all things Jesus said. If they had that spirit of promise, they would be able to do all that Jesus did an more, just as Jesus promised. More over, they would not rely on a book that is less than perfect.

Christians are unaware that Jesus was a Vegetarian, let alone that a pure diet was core to his doctrine to prepare the temple (Body) to receive the spirit of truth. In fact, Paul's doctrine promotes the eating of flesh which is contrary to the doctrine Jesus actually taught. There is a reason Peter and Paul experienced discord. according to the proverbs, Discord is the end result of a lie. It's up to you to decide who was lying between the two. If they were influenced by the same spirit of truth from God, their doctrine would have been in harmony with truth since word of God does not change just as truth is a solid foundation for any understanding.

Blessings!

 

[steeltoes]

Christians are unaware that Jesus was a Vegetarian,

Why not? It appears Jesus is a subjective exercise so who's to say?