Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's about opinions, there is no evidence for an historical Jesus, just the NT and opinions.

There is also Josephus and the conspicuous absence of a mythicist argument during Christianity's initial decades - but this has been discussed to death.

 

[Mycroft]

It's about opinions, there is no evidence for an historical Jesus, just the NT and opinions. If there was evidence one would think that someone would have presented it by now.

There is evidence of a man by the name of Jesus having lived in the first century. Most contemporary scholars of History would agree on this. Whether he was Christ, or just a man, has always been open to debate, but the evidence suggest that at least the man existed.

Evidence > views.

One could, of course, take the view that the earth is flat. That doesn't make it flat, as all evidence points to the contrary.

 

[Sees]

It seems more that they simply grant it...

Is there more evidence for Jesus' historical existence than there is for Bigfoot or Dragons?

The existence of a religious group is the only real evidence and how you feel about that is up for grabs

There is evidence of a man by the name of Jesus having lived in the first century. Most contemporary scholars of History would agree on this. Whether he was Christ, or just a man, has always been open to debate, but the evidence suggest that at least the man existed.

Evidence > views.

One could, of course, take the view that the earth is flat. That doesn't make it flat, as all evidence points to the contrary.

 

[steeltoes]

There is evidence of a man by the name of Jesus having lived in the first century. Most contemporary scholars of History would agree on this. Whether he was Christ, or just a man, has always been open to debate, but the evidence suggest that at least the man existed.

Evidence > views.

One could, of course, take the view that the earth is flat. That doesn't make it flat, as all evidence points to the contrary.

Again, you have offered your opinion that there is evidence without actually pointing to said evidence.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is there more evidence for Jesus' historical existence than there is for Bigfoot or Dragons?

To make such a comparison speaks volumes.

 

[steeltoes]

There is also Josephus and the conspicuous absence of a mythicist argument during Christianity's initial decades - but this has been discussed to death.

FYI, Josephus is late and rife with problems.

Who would have preserved the arguments that you suggest? Christian monks? I don't think so. Unfavorable writings were not preserved or were outright destroyed. For example; Celsius' writings were either destroyed or left to rot because of his views, we only know of his writings through other writers' responses to him.

 

[Sees]

To make such a comparison speaks volumes.

I think it is an important comparison

Bigfoot and Dragons have more accounts, accounts spanning large areas of the globe, and arguably more consistency in the accounts. The existence of religious groups are the key difference...whose traditions universally would constantly blur historical realities and symbolic mythology and legend.

Using a mystery cult for historic evidence just doesn't make sense. It only shows what was taught, believed, spoken, sang, etc.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It's really not about differing views. It's about evidence.

You're serious?

If I conclude something different from the evidence than you conclude, then I am objectively wrong?

You almost sound serious. Please tell me that I've misunderstood you.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

There is also Josephus and the conspicuous absence of a mythicist argument during Christianity's initial decades - but this has been discussed to death.

Josephus? Seriously?

According to the Book of 2nd John, there were Jesus-deniers even in early Christianity. We certainly wouldn't expect any of their writings to survive. Even competing gospels were destroyed, weren't they?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

There is evidence of a man by the name of Jesus having lived in the first century.

What evidence? You can't just claim it exists. You have to at least point at it.

One could, of course, take the view that the earth is flat. That doesn't make it flat, as all evidence points to the contrary.

Wow. You really are serious.

 

[steeltoes]

There is also Josephus and the conspicuous absence of a mythicist argument during Christianity's initial decades - but this has been discussed to death.

There is no kind of argument during Christianity's initial decades of any sort, not a single non Christian comment from anyone, in fact, it's difficult to even know when Christianity's initial decades were?

 

[Mycroft]

It seems more that they simply grant it...

Is there more evidence for Jesus' historical existence than there is for Bigfoot or Dragons?

There is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is Julius Ceasar.

 

[Sees]

There is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is Julius Ceasar.

Coins and all? Sounds like something Craig would say

 

[steeltoes]

There is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is Julius Ceasar.

Yes, we are told this whenever there is no evidence presented for a Jesus. :sleep:

 

[columbus]

There is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is Julius Ceasar.

There is no kind of argument during Christianity's initial decades of any sort, not a single non Christian comment from anyone, in fact, it's difficult to even know when Christianity's initial decades were?

The utter lack of records concerning Jesus prior to Paul's "conversion" leads me to believe that Jesus was doing something else entirely before getting crucified. At the very least wouldn't a solar event and damaging earthquake on the eve of Passover get noticed by someone? Wouldn't a Guy growing up never doing anything wrong at least make him popular?
But no, nothing about any of the notable NT events anywhere except the NT.

Tom

 

[Thief]

The utter lack of records concerning Jesus prior to Paul's "conversion" leads me to believe that Jesus was doing something else entirely before getting crucified. At the very least wouldn't a solar event and damaging earthquake on the eve of Passover get noticed by someone? Wouldn't a Guy growing up never doing anything wrong at least make him popular?
But no, nothing about any of the notable NT events anywhere except the NT.

Tom

And I feel so isolated to notice.....
John's account is greatly different that Matthew, Mark and Luke.
No temptation in the wilderness and instead showing up at a wedding feast changing water into wine...having disciples in less than three days after the baptism.

Seems John knew...Some Else.

 

[technomage]

It's not an original thought, but it hit me. What if Christianity is an offbrand, created by a beggar who claimed to be God for fortune?

I have not read the entire thread, and thus may be bringing up points that have already been discussed, perhaps discussed to death. If this post is redundant, I do apologize.

The first thing one must realize when reading the Gospels is that there is considerable material there that was added by the later authors. Many of the things attributed to Jesus were never said by him. He never claimed to be God ... that was a later doctrinal addition.

I am persuaded that had Jesus lived, and read the Gospel of Mark (the earliest of the Gospels), he would have been absolutely horrified at what was attributed to him.

 

[Thief]

....as well as the writings of Paul!....who supposedly never met the Carpenter.
Paul was a convert.

 

[outhouse]

Using a mystery cult for historic evidence just doesn't make sense. It only shows what was taught, believed, spoken, sang, etc.

What part of this movement was a mystery?

 

[outhouse]

Josephus? Seriously?

According to the Book of 2nd John, there were Jesus-deniers even in early Christianity. We certainly wouldn't expect any of their writings to survive. Even competing gospels were destroyed, weren't they?

Really?


Were these Jesus deniers, or people who claimed the man was just all spirit?


Were they or were they not just debating substance?



Sources please.