Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[metis]

Great Post......

Thanks.

This speed or response that was obviously wanted urgently....... They had to flog Yeshua very badly (to increase blood loss?) and crucify him with nails etc in order to reduce the three day death down to a few hours. They obviously wanted as many people to witness or hear that he was definitely dead before the end of that day, and also because the next day was a sabbath (?). ....... all this before people began to leave the area, maybe?

What do you thibnk?

I think it's conceivably possible. However. the gospel accounts have him being both executed and taken down prior to the Sabbath beginning sundown on that same Friday.

Also, have you any ideas on how many soldiers would have been stationed in Antonia Fortress? For that matter, how many in Cesarea, and all Judea, Samaria and Idumea?

I have no clue, and I think it's all but impossible to know how many there would likely be.

Let me add one thing to what I had posted last, namely that having our own do much of the policing sort of killed several birds with one stone, and the NAZI's used that same tactic. By doing as such, they made Jews think twice about killing the policing force since they were your own people, got at least some to cooperate with them, helped to create informants, turned Jew against Jew, etc. In this manner, the Romans could keep most of the forces in safe havens, ready to spring into action if needed.

For them, it was a win-win tactic, and the NAZI's also used it well many centuries later.

 

[outhouse]

Great Post......

This speed or response that was obviously wanted urgently....... They had to flog Yeshua very badly (to increase blood loss?) and crucify him with nails etc in order to reduce the three day death down to a few hours. They obviously wanted as many people to witness or hear that he was definitely dead before the end of that day, and also because the next day was a sabbath (?). ....... all this before people began to leave the area, maybe?

What do you thibnk?


Also, have you any ideas on how many soldiers would have been stationed in Antonia Fortress? For that matter, how many in Cesarea, and all Judea, Samaria and Idumea?

They did not need to do anything to quicken death.

If they wanted to, their just broke their legs and death soon followed.

 

[steeltoes]

Ok..... What of this Philo? Can you tell more?

I am late replying because this web page was down yesterday but it seems to be up and running now:
Philo of Alexandria*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]


"Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew also called Judaeus Philo, is a figure that spans two cultures, the Greek and the Hebrew. When Hebrew mythical thought met Greek philosophical thought in the first century B.C.E. it was only natural that someone would try to develop speculative and philosophical justification for Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. Thus Philo produced a synthesis of both traditions developing concepts for future Hellenistic interpretation of messianic Hebrew thought, especially by Clement of Alexandria, Christian Apologists like Athenagoras, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and by Origen. He may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John (C. H. Dodd) and theEpistle to the Hebrews(R. Williamson and H. W. Attridge). In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today. Philo’s primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity."

 

[Thief]

Great Post......

This speed or response that was obviously wanted urgently....... They had to flog Yeshua very badly (to increase blood loss?) and crucify him with nails etc in order to reduce the three day death down to a few hours. They obviously wanted as many people to witness or hear that he was definitely dead before the end of that day, and also because the next day was a sabbath (?). ....... all this before people began to leave the area, maybe?

What do you thibnk?


Also, have you any ideas on how many soldiers would have been stationed in Antonia Fortress? For that matter, how many in Cesarea, and all Judea, Samaria and Idumea?

They nailed Him to quicken the death.
They didn't break His legs...His side was pierced.

It was done nail first to demonstrate punishment....and to induce shock.
The piercing was done to be sure He was dead.

Not for the sake of the pending Sabbath.

They didn't need a known public figure on display three days.
A lot of people really did believe He was the Messiah.
Given three days His following might have gathered.

Better for Rome to squelch the pending 'king of the Jews'.....
before a crown could be dealt.

 

[outhouse]

They didn't need a known public figure on display three days.


.

he was no more a public figure then the thousand of other teachers in attendance.

He was a Galilean peasant teacher unkown in Jeruslam.

A lot of people really did believe He was the Messiah.

Doubtful.

There is nothing to indicate this at all, only that he wasnt viewed as a messiah while alive.

His own village did not view him as a messiah.

Given three days His following might have gathered.

There was 400,000 ish people at the temple, his few followers would have been dwarfed in such a large crowd.

 

[oldbadger]

I think it's conceivably possible. However. the gospel accounts have him being both executed and taken down prior to the Sabbath beginning sundown on that same Friday.

Agreed..... that is also what I meant...... death before sunset.

I have no clue, and I think it's all but impossible to know how many there would likely be.

Let me add one thing to what I had posted last, namely that having our own do much of the policing sort of killed several birds with one stone, and the NAZI's used that same tactic. By doing as such, they made Jews think twice about killing the policing force since they were your own people, got at least some to cooperate with them, helped to create informants, turned Jew against Jew, etc. In this manner, the Romans could keep most of the forces in safe havens, ready to spring into action if needed.

Now you're talking. Earlier, I was suggesting that the priesthood was supervising the policing of the Temple, certainly the Courts and further within. The priesthood definitely did have the authority to execute, on the spot, any Gentile who strayed to deeply into the Temple area, and I don't mean the inner sanctum but the areas close to that.
I think that you are right that Roman presence was not high, even though I have read that the Antonia garrison was increased for the three big festivals of the year. Plx don't ask where I read that, but I did.

 

[oldbadger]

They did not need to do anything to quicken death.

If they wanted to, their just broke their legs and death soon followed.

The G-reports did not mention leg-breaking for Yeshua, although I think that the two other criminals were tyreated thus...... all for an early death (and removal) before sunset and Sabbath. Pilate was surprised at the speed of death of Yeshua.

I don't laugh at suggestions that Yeshua did not die. The Decurion (whoever) may have been bribed. The spear thrust might have 'looked good'. There are lots of reports of survival from so many quarters.

 

[oldbadger]

I am late replying because this web page was down yesterday but it seems to be up and running now:
Philo of Alexandria*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]


"Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew also called Judaeus Philo, is a figure that spans two cultures, the Greek and the Hebrew. When Hebrew mythical thought met Greek philosophical thought in the first century B.C.E. it was only natural that someone would try to develop speculative and philosophical justification for Judaism in terms of Greek philosophy. Thus Philo produced a synthesis of both traditions developing concepts for future Hellenistic interpretation of messianic Hebrew thought, especially by Clement of Alexandria, Christian Apologists like Athenagoras, Theophilus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and by Origen. He may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John (C. H. Dodd) and theEpistle to the Hebrews(R. Williamson and H. W. Attridge). In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today. Philo’s primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity."

Good grief. How in hell's name did nobody ever bring this up before? I need to copy and read all that piece.

 

[oldbadger]

There was 400,000 ish people at the temple, his few followers would have been dwarfed in such a large crowd.

Previously you have mentioned that many of this crowd watched his execution.

I ask again......... what do you know of the Roman garrisons and numbers in Judea, Idumea and Samaria, esp at the Antonia fort in Jerusalem?

 

[Sees]

Good grief. How in hell's name did nobody ever bring this up before? I need to copy and read all that piece.

When I've brought up Philo I only seen crickets in return

I have little doubt a student or friend of his could have invented a Jesus narrative that made it over to the Judea region later on. Picking up additional exaggerated fabrications as it builds in snowball fashion.

The hub of philosophy at the time is a reasonable place for it to start. It also accounts for seemingly eastern concepts in other various gospels since platonic and eastern ideologies among others were all mixing up in Alexandria already pre-Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

There are lots of reports of survival from so many quarters.

Romans were masters of mortal punishment.


I have heard of one person surviving a cross, and thats it.

 

[outhouse]

Previously you have mentioned that many of this crowd watched his execution.

I ask again......... what do you know of the Roman garrisons and numbers in Judea, Idumea and Samaria, esp at the Antonia fort in Jerusalem?

600 were stationed at the tower. Ive heard a few thousand came in for Passover.


They placed the cross in entrance and exit ways, to really let that example of what not to do soak in.

In a small city wih so many people, it was crowded, in every direction.

 

[outhouse]

I have little doubt a student or friend of his could have invented a Jesus narrative that made it over to the Judea region later on. Picking up additional exaggerated fabrications as it builds in snowball fashion.

The hub of philosophy at the time is a reasonable place for it to start. It also accounts for seemingly eastern concepts in other various gospels since platonic and eastern ideologies among others were all mixing up in Alexandria already pre-Jesus.

First of all Philo was a Hellenistic Jew of which there were many. He was from Egypt and that is not where we see the mythology form. There are no signs of it originating with Philo.

Instead we see it all over the whole Diaspora, developping within small communities Of Hellenist.

There is no real tie to Philo from Pauls work.


There needs to be no hub so to speak of philosophy, the Diaspora had plenty.


What we do see is say for Mark, it is a compilation of pre existing legends. The passion, miracles and parables.

There is one of two things that happened.

#1 A man was martyred at Passover who's act was viewed as important in certain circles enough that mythology developed around theology.

A. There are no mental hurdles to jump at all.
B. Perfectly plausible.
C. Nothing even raises a eyebrow.


#2 Many different groups fictionalized the same story, in many different parts of the Diaspora.

a. Cannot explain who, why, or where the mythology originated.

b. Mental hurdles are explained, by attacking credible work.

c. NO one is able to follow the scripture or epistles back to a reason why fiction was needed in the first place.

d. Every attempt to even posit anything leaves one scratching their head due to mental gymnastics.

e. Cannot explain why Romans would create s deity from one of their oppressed peasants

f.ail. No replacement theory exist that explains the information we are left with in total.

 

[Thief]

First of all Philo was a Hellenistic Jew of which there were many. He was from Egypt and that is not where we see the mythology form. There are no signs of it originating with Philo.

Instead we see it all over the whole Diaspora, developping within small communities Of Hellenist.

There is no real tie to Philo from Pauls work.


There needs to be no hub so to speak of philosophy, the Diaspora had plenty.


What we do see is say for Mark, it is a compilation of pre existing legends. The passion, miracles and parables.

There is one of two things that happened.

#1 A man was martyred at Passover who's act was viewed as important in certain circles enough that mythology developed around theology.

A. There are no mental hurdles to jump at all.
B. Perfectly plausible.
C. Nothing even raises a eyebrow.


#2 Many different groups fictionalized the same story, in many different parts of the Diaspora.

a. Cannot explain who, why, or where the mythology originated.

b. Mental hurdles are explained, by attacking credible work.

c. NO one is able to follow the scripture or epistles back to a reason why fiction was needed in the first place.

d. Every attempt to even posit anything leaves one scratching their head due to mental gymnastics.

e. Cannot explain why Romans would create s deity from one of their oppressed peasants

f.ail. No replacement theory exist that explains the information we are left with in total.

This post clearly displays your frame of mind.

You have discounted fiction and mental gymnastics.
And I suspect NO one of such frame of mind can think outside of spoon fed history books.

If your waiting for someone to explain theology to you.....here I am.

If all you want is your history crutch for the sake of denial....there you go.

 

[outhouse]

You have discounted fiction and mental gymnastics.
.

Exactly.

Because in case you didn't pay attention, the OP wanted to know about history, not theology.

 

[outhouse]

If your waiting for someone to explain theology to you.....here I am.

.

Sorry but I don't follow people that I feel pervert scripture to meet their own needs.

I tend to follow cultural anthropology so I can place the theology into the proper context of the people who wrote and used the theology, im not sure you even have a clue about this.

 

[oldbadger]

He was a Galilean peasant teacher unkown in Jeruslam.

Good. :yes:
That's shown clearly in G-Mark

His own village did not view him as a messiah.

Good. :yes:
That's shown clearly in G-Mark

There was 400,000 ish people at the temple, his few followers would have been dwarfed in such a large crowd.

Good. :yes:
That's shown clearly in G-Mark, although it also shows that many thousands knew about him after three days of demonstrating.
All shown clearly in G-Mark

 

[oldbadger]

Romans were masters of mortal punishment.

I have heard of one person surviving a cross, and thats it.

You've read about a crucifixion survivor from that period?
Where can I read this, plx?

 

[oldbadger]

600 were stationed at the tower. Ive heard a few thousand came in for Passover.

You mention 'the Tower'. Is this the same building as the Antonia Fortress?

They placed the cross in entrance and exit ways, to really let that example of what not to do soak in.

Where have you read this?
Have they found post-holes in these places, or what?

 

[oldbadger]

Instead we see it all over the whole Diaspora, developping within small communities Of Hellenist.

There is no real tie to Philo from Pauls work.

This is a mix-up.

The growth of Yeshua's and John-t-B's missions was developing (including in the Diaspora) before Paul came on-scene, in fact Paul was Saul and (somehow) commissioned to put these groups down.


I believe that:-
It was during this time that Saul/Paul had a blinding idea....... the manipulation of masses through HIS new religion. He grabbed a compilation of factors and ideas and began to build. He needed concepts from people such as Philo, etc, and he needed a figurehead. Jesus and Christianity sprung up, not from Yeshua or John the Baptist but from Paul. Xianity is 'Pauline'.