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Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

I have debated with all of these, people including shutting down the OP here several times with his nonsense. [I like Don]


Do you think known mythicist who have been kicked out of most forums for poor methodology gives any credibility to Fitgerald.

next thing you will do is bring in more pseudo scholars like Salm, AchyraS, and whats that other greasy characters name, I know you know him.

Thus: Jesus is real and walked on water and turned water to wine and raised the dead and was resurrected?

There is no logical argument I know of, including stories and highly editted tales, that would account for such supernatural abilities. Clearly Dracula and the werewolves are popularized today and have their own followings and I don't discount their fans anymore then Yahweh's. (Man of God is doing great at the box office)
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Thus: Jesus is real and walked on water and turned water to wine and raised the dead and was resurrected?


NO.

Does that mean all of the NT is fiction and not a single shred of historicity can be pulled from its pages due to it being 100% mythology?



Or does it mean we have to critically examine the material to see what is and is not historical?



There is no logical argument I know of, including stories and highly editted tales, that would account for such supernatural abilities.

Agreed.


Clearly Dracula and the werewolves are popularized today and have their own followings and I don't discount their fans anymore then Yahweh's. (Man of God is doing great at the box office)


Sure.




They called the living Emperor the "son of god" and he claimed divinity, so now he doesn't exist?
 
Again, Voco, you're getting caught up in literalism. Of course Jesus didn't walk on water. Of curse he didn't bring anybody back from the dead. Those legends got added in after Paul stopped writing, but before the Gospels got written--they developed as part of the

I agree but was there ever really a jesus? And if there was does the fact that he never had any supernatural abilities actually matter? I think that it does to millions of people today and the insinuation that he didn't have supernatural powers would be met with millions of people saying otherwise.
 
Ah, just as well I guess. I'd just as soon not humiliate you any further anyway (no point in both of us doing it).

I am in no way humilated. I am merely bowing to the staff. You clearly have not read anything I have posted and have almost no intention of doing anything but belittling and insulting me and that is no way to have a discussion.

By all means take your trophy and run. I love Staff Ad Homs as they clue me in to where to spend my time.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I am in no way humilated. I am merely bowing to the staff.

Congrats. That's one of the most popular cop-outs in here.


You clearly have not read anything I have posted and have almost no intention of doing anything but belittling and insulting me and that is no way to have a discussion.

I've read and refuted everything you've posted. You were the one that decided we were going to rate each other.

By all means take your trophy and run. I love Staff Ad Homs as they clue me in to where to spend my time.

If that means you're leaving, then I'll most definitely call this a win.
 
Congrats. That's one of the most popular cop-outs in here.




I've read and refuted everything you've posted. You were the one that decided we were going to rate each other.



If that means you're leaving, then I'll most definitely call this a win.

Other people have had some intersting things to say but you seem to be very full of yourself and out of touch with rational arguments.

Truth is not a contest of egos or who can google what blogs better. Humans are not born as gods who can resurrect the dead but who get stabbed on a cross and die so far as I know and the book nailed makes some great arguments you have not refuted except for some oddball quotes. And while the entire book may have some loose ends I think the overall argument is much more sound then your argument which you characterize as a comforting argument which your posts are supposed to be something that is more substantive. (Wishful thinking, get a publicist)
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Other people have had some intersting things to say but you seem to be very full of yourself and out of touch with rational arguments.

So you're not leaving. :(

Truth is not a contest of egos or who can google what blogs better. Humans are not born as gods who can resurrect the dead but who get stabbed on a cross and die so far as I know and the book nailed makes some great arguments you have not refuted except for some oddball quotes.

It's been shown, as clearly as could be, that several of Fitzgerald's "great arguments" are outright lies.

And while the entire book may have some loose ends I think the overall argument is much more sound then your argument which you characterize as a comforting argument which your posts are supposed to be something that is more substantive. (Wishful thinking, get a publicist)

Sorry, I'm going to have to translate that mess into Earthling and get back to you.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
and the book nailed makes some great arguments



:biglaugh:

Null and void.


It is nothing but a pseudo scholarship appealing to ignorance, for financial gain.




Why don't you hang out and pick up on what real historians and scholars have to say, and "why" instead of dealing with someone who has very limited knowledge on the topic like Fitzgerald. Every statement he has made has been refuted.


While you think they [his poor work] have been debated to death, its nothing more then you already refusing the correct knowledge.


Pick any one point of his "in brief" and if your interested, I will gladly refute it.
 
So you're not leaving. :(
You do want people to discuss their ideas and beliefs even if you disagree with them yes?

It's been shown, as clearly as could be, that several of Fitzgerald's "great arguments" are outright lies.

You have shown you believe them to be so and not much more. I believe some people would say the entire bible is just a pack of outrageous lies as well as the book of mormon and the koran etc etc... But clearly you have been saving your wrath for Fitzgerald.

Sorry, I'm going to have to translate that mess into Earthling and get back to you.

LOL. If you deign to lower yourself to our level. Beep, boop, bop. Take your time.
 

technomage

Finding my own way
I agree but was there ever really a jesus?

I wouldn't call the evidence 100% rock solid, but I'd say the arguments for a historical Jesus are stronger than the arguments for a mythical Jesus.

* We have no eyewitness writings. But we do have second-hand writings (Paul, who spoke to and worked with Peter, who had seen him in life). No, I don't consider Paul to be a reliable witness in all (or even most) of his details, but it's a step towards support.
* We have three separate "gospel" traditions: the Synoptics, John, and Thomas. (everything else is later and derivative.)There's a lot of divergence there, so few reliable facts, but there are still some common elements that aren't likely to remain constant in a constructed myth.
* We can eliminate the "Caesar's Christ" hypothesis, because the assertions made by the Gospel are in line with Hellenized Galilean Judaism, not with Judaic Judaism, not with regular Helenistic culture, and definitely not with Roman culture. You would have had to have not just a Jew to create the myth, but a Galilean Jew. (Judean messianic claimants didn't tend to get miracle stories attributed to them: that was a pretty uniquely Galilean trait.) Josephus is off the hook: his writing style is too good to have written GoMark.
* The earliest Gospel, GoMark, is one of the most horrid examples of Greek literacy extant in First Century writing. Doesn't make for a good conspiracy.

And if there was does the fact that he never had any supernatural abilities actually matter? I think that it does to millions of people today and the insinuation that he didn't have supernatural powers would be met with millions of people saying otherwise.
Argumentum vox populi. I don't care how many people across the world say up is down. It ain't.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
You do want people to discuss their ideas and beliefs even if you disagree with them yes?

Sure. But it would be even better if those people were willing to listen to what other people had to say too, instead of coming up with excuses not to.

You have shown you believe them to be so and not much more.

No, I've also shown why.

I believe some people would say the entire bible is just a pack of outrageous lies as well as the book of mormon and the koran etc etc... But clearly you have been saving your wrath for Fitzgerald.

Not at all: I'm opposed to ALL propagandists. Not especially fond of their lackeys and spokespeople either.
 
:biglaugh:

Null and void.


It is nothing but a pseudo scholarship appealing to ignorance, for financial gain.




Why don't you hang out and pick up on what real historians and scholars have to say, and "why" instead of dealing with someone who has very limited knowledge on the topic like Fitzgerald. Every statement he has made has been refuted.


While you think they [his poor work] have been debated to death, its nothing more then you already refusing the correct knowledge.


Pick any one point of his "in brief" and if your interested, I will gladly refute it.

This sounds fun. (I have church in 6 days and have some time to discuss matters) So lets start at the beginning: The very idea that jesus was myth is just ridiculous... clearly everyone knows jesus was alive and died for our sins and any idea that he didn't and it was just a fairy tale is just ridiculous. Is it just ridiculous anymore than say Santa or the Easter bunny? (Neither argument was presented in the book but is it a ridiculous line of thought that Jesus may just have been a myth?)
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
(Neither argument was presented in the book but is it a ridiculous line of thought that Jesus may just have been a myth?)

The premise is acceptable. The way Fitzgerald goes about trying to validate it is completely underhanded.
 
Not at all: I'm opposed to ALL propagandists. Not especially fond of their lackeys and spokespeople either.

? Are you aware of what propagandist means? Almost all religions have propagandists here and you are opposed to them all? Good luck with that.
 
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The premise is acceptable. The way Fitzgerald goes about trying to validate it is completely underhanded.

I'm not a fan of Fitzgerald but his arguments in this chapter seem straightforward. Can you show me how they are underhanded? I am not always aware of the subtle tricks this hucksters play when trying to refute the holy word.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
This sounds fun. (I have church in 6 days and have some time to discuss matters) So lets start at the beginning: The very idea that jesus was myth is just ridiculous... clearly everyone knows jesus was alive and died for our sins and any idea that he didn't and it was just a fairy tale is just ridiculous. Is it just ridiculous anymore than say Santa or the Easter bunny? (Neither argument was presented in the book but is it a ridiculous line of thought that Jesus may just have been a myth?)


A martyred man at Passover that generated mythology due to people that found his act's in the temple as selfless, as he stood up against the corrupt government.

And every bit of writing we have backs this 100% with no mental hurdles to jump, and it not only fits the cultural anthropology 100% but it is perfectly plausible.



On the other hand, there is no replacement hypothesis that explains the evidence we are left with.

WE have only had 3 people try. Carrier, Doherty and Price. And Earl is not even a scholar. But I do like and respect him because he had the guts to try and provide a replacement hypothesis, that and he was a decent guy to debate with. He no longer does so publically. Carrier went off his rocker when he tried, and Prices 3 pillars are laughable, they are easy to refute.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
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