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Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Seriously?

How many times have I said to start with the Pauline Epistles?

Investigators want to start wherever they want to start. It's not your call.

And Paul was a manipulating, pretentious, pushy producer of a new religion..... using the lifestories of a beautiful Galilean Healer as a part-foundation. Why start there? We are not researching the birth of Xianity, but the life of a real person.
 

gree0232

Active Member
Investigators want to start wherever they want to start. It's not your call.

And Paul was a manipulating, pretentious, pushy producer of a new religion..... using the lifestories of a beautiful Galilean Healer as a part-foundation. Why start there? We are not researching the birth of Xianity, but the life of a real person.

So you finally make a claim ... a self serving one ... that is supported by nothing but your faith.

That is about right.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So you finally make a claim ... a self serving one ... that is supported by nothing but your faith.

That is about right.

Silly post....... (Why does that surprise me?)

That A Galilean healer lived, was baptised, caused a temple rumpus and was executed is supported by nearly all scholarship.

However, I am pleased that you are slowly learning......... to write less than seven lines at a time. For some reason I start dropping off to sleep if your posts are more than very brief.
 

gree0232

Active Member
Silly post....... (Why does that surprise me?)

That A Galilean healer lived, was baptised, caused a temple rumpus and was executed is supported by nearly all scholarship.

However, I am pleased that you are slowly learning......... to write less than seven lines at a time. For some reason I start dropping off to sleep if your posts are more than very brief.

Yeah, actually reading things and examining documents had no bearing on the formation of my conclusion.

I was waiting for you to come up and help me learn by asking me to joint the cult of Jesus Mythery ... er, just because ... its the truth you see.

No thanks, cults tend to bad, and leaders of cults, who cull obedience by praising only that which agrees with them and brutally punishing all dissension is simply not my bag of tea in this fascinating mourn world we live in where the effects of such toxic leadership are well known.

I'll continue to rely of the critical thinking skills and evidenced based reasoning as imparted by both parents and professors.

I find that a much more rewarding experience than joining conspiracy theorists simply because critical thinking and actual evidenced based reasoning is ... too hard. Or ridiculed. Or called untruth.

I rather dislike emotional attempts to manipulate others, which would be yet one more reason for me to detest the thought processes used to 'support' Jesus mythery.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Honest men lie?

Honest men with perfect ability to judge what you can discern and cannot discern, who then begin to lie only at the point where you can longer discern whether or not their are lying?

Interesting thought isn't it?

A most curious thought. Have you ever known men who never lied?

If so, how did you know that they never lied?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Seriously?

How many times have I said to start with the Pauline Epistles?

Conspiracy theorists ... rejecting even English all the time.

Pointing to Pauline Epistles is evidence of what exactly, Pauline Epistles? If you say so.

Pretenders can't explain why they believe what they believe, and you are no exception.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Here is a basic outline of Christ myth theory pasted from wiki:

"The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory or Jesus mythicism) is the proposition that the Jesus of Nazareth as depicted in the gospels never existed, but was invented by the early Christian community.

It sounds like everyone exept Christian NT literalists are Jesus Mythers.

That would make outhouse a Jesus Myther. I'm not sure he's gonna like that.

Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century that the New Testament has no historical value, non-Christian writers of the first century failed to mention Jesus, and that Christianity had pagan and mythical beginnings.

That excludes me from being a Jesus Myther then. I think the NT confirms the historical truth that Jerusalem existed as a city back then and that Romans ruled the area.

I am happy to realize that I'm not a Jesus Myther. From everything I hear said about them, they sound like some kind of primitive, ignorant ghouls.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
By all means, examine the record. Examine the record and see for yourself ... as I did.

If I had to bet on it, I would bet that steeltoes is quite a bit more knowledgeable about the record than you are.

But maybe I'm wrong. Why don't you engage him regarding what the record says?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
We know he was a persuader, it is how ancient people wrote. Aristotle taught well enough his teachings made it to Paul. I cannot write as well as Paul.






Multiple reasons.


One a large crowd would get you killed like JtB. Its not hard to believe Jesus learned from his mistake.

A large following would get you noticed.

A poor group, and a large following would starve, they lived on the hospitality of the homes they visited.


But most of all. The bible is almost silent on the others. But does mention his inner circle over and over again. IT makes sense if living on the road in this time period if you travel light and with few numbers. The people he teaches are poor and could not feed many.

So feeding several thousand on more than one occasion was an error?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I was waiting for you to come up and help me learn by asking me to joint the cult of Jesus Mythery ... er, just because ... its the truth you see.

No thanks, cults tend to bad, and leaders of cults, who cull obedience by praising only that which agrees with them and brutally punishing all dissension is simply not my bag of tea in this fascinating mourn world we live in where the effects of such toxic leadership are well known.

Yeah, one time I opined that a character named Jehosaphat may have actually existed, but as a begger in 143 BCE, in Egypt, who accidentally knocked over a water bottle. The water passed through some old rotted grapes and came out the other side sort of purplish and winey. People started claiming he had done the water-to-wine thing, and that's how the gospel stories got started, about Jesus.

Alas, my Jesus Myther cult leaders considered it a terrible heresy. "You can't open the door of historicity even a crack!" they berated me.

Then they had me stripped naked, tied to a telephone pole, and beaten with a bullwhip until I passed out.

These cults -- I love them when everything goes right, but they can be so hard on us freethinkers.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The anatomy of conspiracy.

This, in answer to the mention of 'the individual investigation of Truth'.

You need another lesson.
Conspiracies are all about 'groups' of people.
'Individual investigation of truth' is all about individuals.

So...... an individual carrying out an investigation cannot be involved in a conspiracy.
Silly.
Wake up.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It sounds like everyone exept Christian NT literalists are Jesus Mythers.

That would make outhouse a Jesus Myther. I'm not sure he's gonna like that.

That excludes me from being a Jesus Myther then. I think the NT confirms the historical truth that Jerusalem existed as a city back then and that Romans ruled the area.

I am happy to realize that I'm not a Jesus Myther. From everything I hear said about them, they sound like some kind of primitive, ignorant ghouls.

Am I a Jesus myther? I don't think so. I accept that Yeshua the Healer lived, got baptised and executed, but I don't believe in anything to do with Jesus, the Pauline Myth..

That could make me a Yeshua Myther. I think I like that better. A Yeshimiff.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I was waiting for you to come up and help me learn by asking me to joint the cult of Jesus Mythery ... er, just because ... its the truth you see.

I believe that you are already deeply within the Jesus-Myth, simply because you follow the faith based upon a mythical Jesus who was fashioned by Paul (and others), and later supported by the Johanine Gospel. You really ought to read up the scholars who show how the fourth evangelist steered away from Yeshua the healer, the exorciser towards Jesus the teacher........ the manipulation is there for all to see.

I am more realistic, and take interest in Yeshua the Healer, the Galilean who never knew or used the name 'Jesus'.

I've discussed and debated with a lot of Christians in my life, and the vast majority are patient, loving, understanding people, yet when I read your posts I seem to think of Inquisitive Dominican priests in dungeons...... just saying.......
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So feeding several thousand on more than one occasion was an error?

.....no error. None at all. A piece of cake..... well..... bread! :)

And he did not shuffle from village to village, sending his 2/3 disciples ahead. And he did not live by magic and meal. This stuff is J.D. Crosson's idea of Jesus. When scholar's take to their opinions it's ok to dismiss them, as agreed by outhouse furtther back in the thread.

Yeshua was adored and welcomed wherever he went, the popular and successful Galilean healer, who had (no doubt) dropped away his trade as his reputation as healer had grown.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's interesting that I have been called an atheist, apparently for the sin of not seeing Jesus exactly as fundamentalist Christians see him.

..... so was I. I had to direct the honourable member's attention to my friggin' title.

OK...... what are you? I've always wondered, because your title is 'Me and God'. I sincerely hope you're not His best mate after my previous posts to you. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Then they had me stripped naked, tied to a telephone pole, and beaten with a bullwhip until I passed out.

....... hang on...... that sure sounds very similar to Madam Wenlock's bondage club. Oh.... maybe not. It's all a long time ago. I don't talk to Mrs Badger about that stuff. :D
 

gree0232

Active Member
I believe that you are already deeply within the Jesus-Myth, simply because you follow the faith based upon a mythical Jesus who was fashioned by Paul (and others), and later supported by the Johanine Gospel. You really ought to read up the scholars who show how the fourth evangelist steered away from Yeshua the healer, the exorciser towards Jesus the teacher........ the manipulation is there for all to see.

I am more realistic, and take interest in Yeshua the Healer, the Galilean who never knew or used the name 'Jesus'.

I've discussed and debated with a lot of Christians in my life, and the vast majority are patient, loving, understanding people, yet when I read your posts I seem to think of Inquisitive Dominican priests in dungeons...... just saying.......

Well shucks, once again, I am bewildered at how your faith and ability to discern personal traits magically through the internet ... contrasts with that desire for a personal, evidenced, and thus explainable, journey toward truth.

I mean at any point you could have simply laid out the case .. and have continuously failed to do so.

Instead, you employ overt fallacy:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

Gee, I'd certainly lay out my diabolical (yes, yes ... ha ha) ... er, rational case against Jesus, but you see YOU are just too deep in the cups of the myth - which is evidenced by the fact that you asked me for evidence rather than just taking my word ... and you actually appear to know what the hell you are talking about ... so I'll just appeal to spite.

In fact, I'm just cross over into full on ad hominem by vacuously comparing you to a an Inquisitor. Because discussions based on evidence are actually ... torture? :shrug:

At this point I feel its worth mentioning that there is a point where simple conspiracy, which employs absurdity to maintain an illogical belief, becomes something more ... simple abuse.

And I am beginning to see that in your posts.

Anyone who agrees with you is auto magically (huh, auto correct actually got that one right?) smarter than DaVinci, More loft than Jesus himself (who is apparently a myth, so that isn't saying much?), more beautiful than Cyndi Crawford, more profound than Abraham Lincoln.

The actual strength of the claim, even overt errors in claim don't matter, only agreement.

And disagreement?

Those who disagree are automatically dumb. They are ugly. Deceitful. Nasty. Or whatever pejorative an abuser can use to prevent sustained disagreement and assume control of the person.

Its a tactic that I find particularly distasteful, and one that I feel its worth reminding people about. Because the ultimate goal of such behavior is quite literally to cull the weak from the strong, to find those who who are susceptible to blind delivery of praise and insult and whose behavior can be modified by through this application.

Those who would cull people for such an intent are rarely of good intent.

Ergo, I humbly submit that you offer more in way of discussion than insults and derision toward disagreement and blind praise for any agreement no matter how loony. It sends a VERY bad vibe.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
.....no error. None at all. A piece of cake..... well..... bread! :)

And he did not shuffle from village to village, sending his 2/3 disciples ahead. And he did not live by magic and meal. This stuff is J.D. Crosson's idea of Jesus. When scholar's take to their opinions it's ok to dismiss them, as agreed by outhouse furtther back in the thread.

Yeshua was adored and welcomed wherever he went, the popular and successful Galilean healer, who had (no doubt) dropped away his trade as his reputation as healer had grown.

So he fed thousands?
 
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