Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[godnotgod]

But that thing you quoted talked about the vase ( ordinary mind ) being shattered.

Yes, the idea of 'I' encapsulating Buddha Mind must be shattered.

 

[godnotgod]

In general use "absolute" has the meaning of "complete". What do you mean by it?

That it is not relative to anything else. It has no opposite.

 

[godnotgod]

But as I observed to another contributor recently, you're not a preacher and we ain't your congregation, so maybe you should stop talking down to people. It's a discussion forum and people are going to have different views.

Evangelising is against forum rules, by the way.

I am not trying to convert anyone to a religious doctrine via evangelising. Report me if you wish. Pointing to the moon is not a doctrine. If you don't like my input, then put me on ignore. You don't have to listen to me. Others here do appreciate what I have to say.

There is this view and that view, but I have not been referring to personal views. I am referring to Universal View. You have not been paying attention.

 

[godnotgod]

Indeed. Being preached at is very tiresome.

You're just pissed because I proved my point and you have no real argument except to fanagle about silly insignificant minutiae.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You're just pissed because I proved my point and you have no real argument except to fanagle about silly insignificant minutiae.

No, it's an accurate observation, you continually preach and talk down to people. And you haven't "proved" anything, all you have done is twist and misrepresent things to suit your own ego-centric agenda.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There is this view and that view, but I have not been referring to personal views. I am referring to Universal View. You have not been paying attention.

Again, so arrogant and patronising. You really think you have a monopoly on truth? Clearly you don't, what you do have is a large ego and a need for attention. I think you have delusions of grandeur, you really do believe you have a message which everyone needs to hear.

But I haven't seen people lining up to express their appreciation of your ideas, in fact you have managed to alienate nearly everyone because of your dogmatic and patronising attitude.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That it is not relative to anything else. It has no opposite.

You have a major problem here. Sunyata is an expression of conditionality and therefore an expression of relativity, which means it is completely incompatible with your notions of "absolute".

So sunyata is incompatible with your "Absolute", and also incompatible with your "Pure Consciousness" and your "Cosmic Consciousness".

Your problem, as usual, is that you are trying to force together conflicting ideas, in this case ideas from Buddhism and Hinduism. Surprise, surprise, they don't fit together at all, which is why you then have to twist the ideas out of shape in an attempt to make them fit, banging square pegs into round holes, ending up with a mangled monstrosity.
Of course you don't care because you are so intent on trying to make your idiosyncratic theory work, you have so much invested in it emotionally that you can no longer see the wood for the trees.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

When one realizes that emptiness and form are ONE and the same, is their awareness increasing?

No, their wisdom is increasing. It's being aware of the same stuff in a different way. The same sights, sounds, tastes, smell, sensations, thoughts and feelings, all of it, anything you experience. In this case ( the Heart Sutra ) it's about seeing the emptiness, conditionality and relativity of all these phenomena.

And all phenomena means all phenomena, consciousness too. That's why notions like "Pure Consciousness" and Cosmic Consciousness" are nonsensical in this context, they are just misguided concepts which obscure the full implications of sunyata.
Against the background of sunyata notions like "God" and "The Absolute" are also nonsensical. But it seems many can't really deal with the reality of the void so they immediately start filling it with concepts and beliefs.

 

[Unification]

No, their wisdom is increasing. It's being aware of the same stuff in a different way. The same sights, sounds, tastes, smell, sensations, thoughts and feelings, all of it, anything you experience. In this case ( the Heart Sutra ) it's about seeing the emptiness, conditionality and relativity of all these phenomena.

And all phenomena means all phenomena, consciousness too. That's why notions like "Pure Consciousness" and Cosmic Consciousness" are nonsensical in this context, they are just misguided concepts which obscure the full implications of sunyata.
Against the background of sunyata notions like "God" and "The Absolute" are also nonsensical. But it seems many can't really deal with the reality of the void so they immediately start filling it with concepts and beliefs.

I am fine with that. It doesn't need to be technical, and lets rid of the "conscious" perceptions.

Let's centralize (the "heart" of the matter) on what the "heart" sutra is trying to teach. . trying to sew and stitch within us.

PERFECT nirvana, PERFECT enlightenment, true insight which leads to the end of all suffering. The end of all suffering/the liberation from suffering is the result.

Perfect is Absolute.

A Sariputra sees wisdom "increasing," gradual enlightenment while perfect/absolute nirvana and enlightenment sees "no increase."

May I ask how "perfect/absolute" nirvana and enlightenment can be "relative?"

Is True insight also relative? If Truth is relative, then there is no such thing as truth or true insight.

I understand what you mean by relative and we are ever-changing in many ways.... but that too is overthinking, the mind making things more complex than needed..... the void/emptiness/nothing will always remain the same -perfect/absolute/unchanging. . .

no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

I suppose none of this even matters, what matters is the earnest and genuine path to end all suffering.

When one deduces down to the void/emptiness/nothing.... few can't help but express such because it's the void/emptiness/nothing that ends all suffering. I also understand what you mean, many over-conceptualize and lie about what that void/emptiness/nothing is with an exceeding amount of wrong perceptions.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

PERFECT nirvana, PERFECT enlightenment, true insight which leads to the end of all suffering. The end of all suffering/the liberation from suffering is the result.
Perfect is Absolute.

I think I observed earlier in the thread that the word "perfection" in this context can be somewhat misleading. "Paramita" also has the sense of full or complete, so you could talk about "full insight" into sunyata.

In any case sunyata is incompatible with notions of "Absolute". The Wiki article on sunyata is worth a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā

no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

This is just another way of saying that all phenomena are subject to emptiness, it isn't intended to describe the void as some kind of absolute "thing".
See here for example: http://fwbo-news.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/change-to-wording-of-heart-sutra.html

 

[Unification]

I think I observed earlier in the thread that the word "perfection" in this context can be somewhat misleading. "Paramita" also has the sense of full or complete, so you could talk about "full insight" into sunyata.

In any case sunyata is incompatible with notions of "Absolute". The Wiki article on sunyata is worth a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā



This is just another way of saying that all phenomena are subject to emptiness, it isn't intended to describe the void as some kind of absolute "thing".
See here for example: http://fwbo-news.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/change-to-wording-of-heart-sutra.html

Thank you for the links, I'll check them out.

 

[Unification]

I think I observed earlier in the thread that the word "perfection" in this context can be somewhat misleading. "Paramita" also has the sense of full or complete, so you could talk about "full insight" into sunyata.

In any case sunyata is incompatible with notions of "Absolute". The Wiki article on sunyata is worth a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā



This is just another way of saying that all phenomena are subject to emptiness, it isn't intended to describe the void as some kind of absolute "thing".
See here for example: http://fwbo-news.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/change-to-wording-of-heart-sutra.html

Sunyata may be incompatible with "perfect/absolute" but could "wisdom/insight/enlightenment/nirvana" all be considered "perfect/absolute?"

Kind of like, wisdom doesn't change.. it is perfect and absolute. It is like a law of the universe. 200 trillion years ago, someone could have said: "“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Just as someone could have said 2000 years ago: “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”
Just as someone can say those same very words today: "“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Unalterable being "perfect/absolute."

I suppose that I'd be in the middle of emptiness and primal emptiness. They are both no-things(material/substance/form) but are interdependent in all material/substance/form. Kind of like a human being cannot experience wisdom (the no form) without dependence on the physical human body(the form).

Would paramita and sunyata be interdependent on one another yet separate no-things?

I am also not referring to emptiness or the absolute as being any kind of "thing" rather than wisdom, insight, nirvana, enlightenment which are no-things.

If we disagree, help me see what you are seeing.

 

[Unification]

I think I observed earlier in the thread that the word "perfection" in this context can be somewhat misleading. "Paramita" also has the sense of full or complete, so you could talk about "full insight" into sunyata.

In any case sunyata is incompatible with notions of "Absolute". The Wiki article on sunyata is worth a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śūnyatā



This is just another way of saying that all phenomena are subject to emptiness, it isn't intended to describe the void as some kind of absolute "thing".
See here for example: http://fwbo-news.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/change-to-wording-of-heart-sutra.html

I suppose for me the goal is eradicate and end suffering. Not so much worrying about what form and formless are.

Throughout my own life of experience.... this happened in two ways.

Through choices, I was left empty and desolate inside... I was suffering. I can say that through sunyata I realized the suffering by feeling the emptiness that left me at rock bottom.

Then I swept and cleaned out all perceptions and was left with a clear, empty mind. Natural wisdom arose. I then can also say that through a clear, clean, and empty voided mind of all perception, I was liberated to that suffering through the natural wisdom that arose.

It was moreso about acquiring wisdom and insight as to why I was suffering, and then making the necessary changes to conquer, overcome, and eradicate that suffering.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Kind of like, wisdom doesn't change.. it is perfect and absolute. It is like a law of the universe.

So you mean wisdom as a sort of abstract natural "principle" waiting to be discovered? I think you could look at it like that, though of course in a practical sense wisdom is conditional on the presence of human minds with the willingness and ability to recognise it. And assuming there are other sentient races out there, do you think they would experience this "universal" wisdom, and if they did, would they experience it in the same way as we do? Difficult questions.

So I'm not sure really. I suspect though that describing anything in human experience as "perfect" or "absolute" is likely to be problematic, these seem like abstract idealised properties.

So we observe our own experience closely, as objectively as we can. Do we experience anything unchanging with independent existence?

 

[Unification]

Very wonderful indeed! Thank you for sharing your powerful transformative experience.

The Buddha said:

"Poverty is your greatest treasure; never exchange it for a rich and easy life"

Not an easy lesson to understand for most of us.

Thanks bud. Greatly appreciated.

 

[godnotgod]

You have a major problem here. Sunyata is an expression of conditionality and therefore an expression of relativity, which means it is completely incompatible with your notions of "absolute".

So sunyata is incompatible with your "Absolute", and also incompatible with your "Pure Consciousness" and your "Cosmic Consciousness".

"Whatever can be conceptualized is therefore relative, and whatever is relative is Sunya, empty. Since absolute inconceivable truth is also Sunya, Sunyata or the void is shared by both Samsara and Nirvana. Ultimately, Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood."

Nagarjuna

http://the-wanderling.com/sunyata.html

Yin and Yang are relative values, but together comprise The Absolute, all empty, all subject to Sunyata. The fundamental reality is Absolute. Relativity is always only pointing to one side or the other of The Absolute.

 

[godnotgod]

So we observe our own experience closely, as objectively as we can. Do we experience anything unchanging with independent existence?

To determine that, the question needs to be asked: 'Who, or what,is it that is observing the experience?"

 

[godnotgod]

Again, so arrogant and patronising. You really think you have a monopoly on truth? Clearly you don't, what you do have is a large ego and a need for attention. I think you have delusions of grandeur, you really do believe you have a message which everyone needs to hear.

But I haven't seen people lining up to express their appreciation of your ideas, in fact you have managed to alienate nearly everyone because of your dogmatic and patronising attitude.

Reality is not a matter of opinion. That is why it appears as dogma to you and many others. They want to retain their personal views of reality. I am not here to gather a flock of followers, but only to point to the moon. If you choose to attack my pointing finger, then you won't see the moon. Pointing to the moon is not a doctrine or dogma that I need to defend. But if you choose to attach my pointing finger, I might say something like: 'You're not paying attention!', or, if you post an obviously contradictory response, I might say 'DUH!' to that. If you continue to attack my pointing finger, I might throw in the towel and say 'Go to your room!', or if the response exhibits a certain level of sheer stupidity and ignorance, the reply might be 'Are you dense, or what?', only used in extreme cases of infection.

But you are not paying attention again, Mr. Spiny: I am pointing to Universal Consciousness, 'universal' meaning available to all, just as the Buddha said, which translates to NOT being a monopoly on 'truth'. This is not about MY view, but THE view.

All sentient beings have Buddha Nature. IOW, this is universal to all:

Origin of the Buddha Nature Doctrine
The origin of the Buddha Nature doctrine can be traced to something the historical Buddha said, recorded in the Pali Tipitika (Pabhassara Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 1.49-52):

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind.

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." [Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation]


This passage gave rise to many theories and interpretations within early Buddhism. Monastics and scholars also struggled with questions about anatta, no self, and how a no-self could be reborn, affected by karma, or become a Buddha. The luminous mind that is present whether one is aware of it or not offered an answer.

Theravada Buddhism did not develop a doctrine of Buddha Nature. However, other early schools of Buddhism began to describe the luminous mind is a subtle, basic consciousness present in all sentient beings, or as a potentiality for enlightenment that pervades everywhere.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabuddhism/a/Buddha-Nature.htm

Perhaps due to your backwards stagnant Theravada teaching in which Buddha Nature was not developed is why you fail to grasp this principle.

(not talking down to you; just making an observation. nothing personal)

 

[godnotgod]

No, their wisdom is increasing. It's being aware of the same stuff in a different way. The same sights, sounds, tastes, smell, sensations, thoughts and feelings, all of it, anything you experience. In this case ( the Heart Sutra ) it's about seeing the emptiness, conditionality and relativity of all these phenomena.

What you're still not getting is the very seeing with which these observations are determined to be what they are. That does not increase or decrease. It is Unborn, Ungrown, Uncaused. That is Cosmic Consciousness, which the Buddha experienced and used to develop his principles with. The conditioned mind cannot be grown to a point of such understanding. A major transformation takes place in which that view is dissolved and another view comes into play. Buddha Mind, Big Mind, Universal Mind, Ultimate Reality, Cosmic Consciousness, Nirvana, Enlightenment, Satori, etc. all point to this transformative experience, which is beyond sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch, and thoughts; IOW, beyond perceptual reality, beyond the phenomenal world. That is how the nature of all phenomena is determined to be what it is: Sunyata, or Empty. The conditioned mind, or conventional wisdom, cannot be developed to come to this kind of insight, which is why the Prajnamaramita is called 'The Perfection of Wisdom', rather than just 'wisdom'.

 

[godnotgod]

Thanks bud. Greatly appreciated.

Well, your presence here is greatly appreciated!