Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[Runewolf1973]

As it is, it makes for a symbol of relative change vs relative changelesness, with the entire symbol signifying The Absolute of The Changeless. You would have each half and the totality symbolizing only change, which makes no sense at all.

Well it looks like a better representation for the ceaseless, ever changing universe. It is a rather poor symbol if meant to represent strictly nonduality. To me it represents interaction which is neither truly dual, nor truly nondual. It is just the way of the universe.

 

[godnotgod]

Well it looks like a better representation for the ceaseless, ever changing universe. It is a rather poor symbol if meant to represent strictly nonduality. To me it represents interaction which is neither truly dual, nor truly nondual. It is just the way of the universe.

No, it represent relative duality. But this 'duality' is always unified. The notion that you are seeing two opposing and relative values is incorrect; what you are seeing are two aspects of the same reality along a continuum. night transforms into day; hot into cold; good into evil, etc. The unity of yin/yang is The Absolute, while yin and yang are relative. They are not in conflict, but in harmony together, which is why you cannot have all change without changelesness. IOW, there is dark because there is light, and there is change because there is The Changeless....and...oh, yes: there is Everything because there is Nothingness.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Well it looks like a better representation for the ceaseless, ever changing universe. It is a rather poor symbol if meant to represent strictly nonduality. To me it represents interaction which is neither truly dual, nor truly nondual. It is just the way of the universe.

The Wiki article is Interesting:

"In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (also yin-yang or yin yang, 陰陽yīnyáng "dark—bright") describes how opposite or contrary forces are actually complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another."

"Yin and yang can be thought of as complementary (rather than opposing) forces that interact to form a dynamic system in which the whole is greater than the assembled parts..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

 

[Runewolf1973]

The Wiki article is Interesting:

"In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (also yin-yang or yin yang, 陰陽yīnyáng "dark—bright") describes how opposite or contrary forces are actually complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another."

"Yin and yang can be thought of as complementary (rather than opposing) forces that interact to form a dynamic system in which the whole is greater than the assembled parts..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

Cool! That makes perfect sense. I guess my interpretation of interaction is not so far off after all.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No, it represent relative duality. But this 'duality' is always unified. The notion that you are seeing two opposing and relative values is incorrect; what you are seeing are two aspects of the same reality along a continuum. night transforms into day; hot into cold; good into evil, etc. The unity of yin/yang is The Absolute, while yin and yang are relative. They are not in conflict, but in harmony together, which is why you cannot have all change without changelesness. IOW, there is dark because there is light, and there is change because there is The Changeless....and...oh, yes: there is Everything because there is Nothingness.

I prefer the Wiki interpretation.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Cool! That makes perfect sense. I guess my interpretation of interaction is not so far off after all.

I thought of yin and yang earlier, I was watching waves break on rocks. Fluid v, solid, moving v, static, that kind of stuff, rather cool. I was rather hoping to see a seal but I guess the "cosmic consciousness" wasn't working today.

 

[godnotgod]

.

The Wiki article is Interesting:

"In Chinese philosophy, yin and yang (also yin-yang or yin yang, 陰陽yīnyáng "dark—bright") describes how opposite or contrary forces are actually complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another."

"Yin and yang can be thought of as complementary (rather than opposing) forces that interact to form a dynamic system in which the whole is greater than the assembled parts..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

Yup, that is correct. What I've said all along, especially the part about them being complementary rather than opposing.

Another interesting and very important element is that each of the two halves of Yin and Yang contain within them a small circle of the opposite color. We call the larger black half 'Major Yin' and the larger white half 'Major Yang'. The black circle within the Major Yang is called 'Minor Yin', and the white circle within the Major Yin is called Minor Yang. This arrangement is to signify that Yin is not all Yin; it contains within it some element of Yang, and vice-versa. It is for this reason that Yin and Yang are complementary. Male 'knows' female, and vice-versa. Yin and Yang comprise an inseparable whole; the one cannot exist without the other.

But Yin and Yang do not exist in nature as such. They are principles only as to how the whole works, and the whole is The Absolute, always. So Yin and Yang are actually YinYang.

 

[godnotgod]

I prefer the Wiki interpretation.

Same thing.

Q: When you consider Yin and Yang together as a whole, (ie 'Everything') is there anything else to which it can be compared?

 

[godnotgod]

I thought of yin and yang... moving v. static...

Yes, sort of like 'change' vs. 'no-change'. Good observations!

 

[godnotgod]

Cool! That makes perfect sense. I guess my interpretation of interaction is not so far off after all.

Except that you fail to recognize the relative Yin/Yang relationship of change vs no-change, thereby arbitrarily forcing interaction to be an absolute, rather than a relative value, as it should be. When you state that 'interaction is Everything', you have made it an absolute, which you then deny, as a means of forcing it to fit your nice, neat pet theory, except that it is a logically erroneous concept.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Except that you fail to recognize the relative Yin/Yang relationship of change vs no-change, thereby arbitrarily forcing interaction to be an absolute, rather than a relative value, as it should be. When you state that 'interaction is Everything', you have made it an absolute, which you then deny, as a means of forcing it to fit your nice, neat pet theory, except that it is a logically erroneous concept.

The whole point of YinYang is that absolutes do not exist. The balance of the universe as a whole is maintained precisely because there is no absolute, no single overpowering force. Without this perpetual balance of interactive forces, there would be no unity. If The Changeless were absolute as you say, it would throw off that balance. There can be no "pure nothingness" because there is always a little something else in everything. There is always a little Yin in every Yang, a little Yang in every Yin...NO absolute.

 

[godnotgod]

The whole point of YinYang is that absolutes do not exist.

Man, your logic is really screwed.

That is not the 'point' of Yin/Yang: Yin/Yang are principles developed to simply illustrate complementary relationships between what we see as opposites, as outlined in the Wiki piece I posted. IOW, the conditioned mind sees opposites as being in opposition, whereas the enlightened mind sees them as being complementary. It says nothing about absolute because that is not the 'point' of Yin/Yang. But at the very minimum, 'relative' automatically implies 'absolute', which, in this case, is the unity of Yin/Yang taken as a whole.

The balance of the universe as a whole is maintained precisely because there is no absolute, no single overpowering force.

Again, your logic sux!

Where do you get the notion that 'absolute' means 'overpowering'? You haven't a clue. The Tao, for example, and what Yin/Yang is about, is an absolute, but specifically does NOT dominate.

Without this perpetual balance of interactive forces, there would be no unity.

Thuuuuck!

How do you come to that silly conclusion?

If The Changeless were absolute as you say, it would throw off that balance.

Wrong! The balance exists because of The Changeless!

"From the One, came the Two;
from the Two, came the Three;
and from the Three,
came the Ten Thousand Things"

Tao te Ching

The 'One' is The Absolute; the 'Two' is Yin/Yang.

There can be no "pure nothingness" because there is always a little something else in everything. There is always a little Yin in every Yang...no absolute.

Out of Nothingness, comes Everything, and that is The Absolute. Were it not so, there would remain something 'other' than Everything, which there isn't. IOW, there is nothing that exists relative to Everything, making it The Absolute.

Simple.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Man, your logic is really screwed.

That is not the 'point' of Yin/Yang: Yin/Yang are principles developed to simply illustrate complementary relationships between what we see as opposites, as outlined in the Wiki piece I posted. IOW, the conditioned mind sees opposites as being in opposition, whereas the enlightened mind sees them as being complementary. It says nothing about absolute because that is not the 'point' of Yin/Yang. But at the very minimum, 'relative' automatically implies 'absolute', which, in this case, is the unity of Yin/Yang taken as a whole.



Again, your logic sux!

Where do you get the notion that 'absolute' means 'overpowering'? You haven't a clue. The Tao, for example, and what Yin/Yang is about, is an absolute, but specifically does NOT dominate.



Thuuuuck!

How do you come to that silly conclusion?



Wrong! The balance exists because of The Changeless!

"From the One, came the Two;
from the Two, came the Three;
and from the Three,
came the Ten Thousand Things"

Tao te Ching

The 'One' is The Absolute; the 'Two' is Yin/Yang.



Out of Nothingness, comes Everything, and that is The Absolute. Were it not so, there would remain something 'other' than Everything, which there isn't. IOW, there is nothing that exists relative to Everything, making it The Absolute.

Simple.

Absolute nonsense maybe...

 

[godnotgod]

Absolute nonsense maybe...

Answer my question: Yin and Yang together comprise the Whole Enchilada....Everything, excluding nothing. So is there anything that remains that can be relatively compared to this 'Everything'?

 

[godnotgod]

The balance of the universe as a whole is maintained precisely because there is no absolute, no single overpowering force.

Tao gave them birth;
The “power” of Tao reared them,
Shaped them according to their kinds,
Perfected them, giving to each its strength.
Therefore
Of the ten thousand things there is not one that does not worship Tao
And do homage to its “power”.
No mandate ever went forth that accorded to Tao the right to be worshipped,
Nor to its “power” the right to be worshipped,
Nor to its “power” the right to receive homage.
It was always and of itself so.
Therefore as Tao bore them and the “power” of Tao reared them,
Made them grow, fostered them,
Harboured them,
Brewed for them,
So you must rear them, but not lay claim to them,
Control them, but never lean upon them,
Be chief among them, but not manage them.
This is called the mysterious power.”

Tao te Ching, Ch. 51

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/waley.html#Kap51

 

[Runewolf1973]

Answer my question: Yin and Yang together comprise the Whole Enchilada....Everything, excluding nothing. So is there anything that remains that can be relatively compared to this 'Everything'?

No. That's why there is no such thing as nothingness, only everything.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Tao gave them birth;
The “power” of Tao reared them,
Shaped them according to their kinds,
Perfected them, giving to each its strength.
Therefore
Of the ten thousand things there is not one that does not worship Tao
And do homage to its “power”.
No mandate ever went forth that accorded to Tao the right to be worshipped,
Nor to its “power” the right to be worshipped,
Nor to its “power” the right to receive homage.
It was always and of itself so.
Therefore as Tao bore them and the “power” of Tao reared them,
Made them grow, fostered them,
Harboured them,
Brewed for them,
So you must rear them, but not lay claim to them,
Control them, but never lean upon them,
Be chief among them, but not manage them.
This is called the mysterious power.”

Tao te Ching, Ch. 51

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/waley.html#Kap51

I don't read this stuff, so why do you post it?

 

[godnotgod]

I don't read this stuff, so why do you post it?

So you might open up your mind and learn to SEE Reality directly, rather than merely conceptualize about it with notions such as 'interaction'.

 

[godnotgod]

No. That's why there is no such thing as nothingness, only everything.

Since every thing is interconnected as One, there is no-thing.

'Form is emptiness;
emptiness is form'

 

[Runewolf1973]

So you might open up your mind and learn to SEE Reality directly, rather than merely conceptualize about it with notions such as 'interaction'.

I SEE reality directly by interacting directly with it.