Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[godnotgod]

I have always recognized the interconnectivity of the universe. That to me means that as much as the universe may change, nothing is truly separated. The oneness of the universe does not change. We are all like brothers and sisters in this giant family we call the cosmos. I do not accept oneness as being more fundamental than duality. Both are fundamental. One cannot exist without the other. Male cannot exist without female. The two are not separate though, the two interact as one. Everything is interactive and interconnected. I don't see where you get this idea that changeless is fundamental while change is not. To me it is an imbalanced view. There is no aspect of the universe that is not fundamental or vital to the universe in some way. Change is one of those aspects.

So if 'the oneness of the universe does not change', as you say, then duality must just be a concept. There is no such thing as
'duality'. And a dual condition is what is required for 'interaction'. Therefore, all change must be illusory, because all phenomena is illusory.

 

[Runewolf1973]

So if 'the oneness of the universe does not change', as you say, then duality must just be a concept. There is no such thing as
'duality'. And a dual condition is what is required for 'interaction'. Therefore, all change must be illusory, because all phenomena is illusory.

No. Duality is just as fundamental as oneness. Every representation of the universe both man made and natural indicates both a dual nature and a unified nature. That is why I say interaction is everything. The "inter" represents the oneness, while the "action" represents that dual nature. The word interaction accurately describes both the dual and non-dual nature of the universe. It is not One, nor is it Two, rather it is more akin to Not-Two. I don't know how else to put it. Perhaps this is something you will have to realize for yourself. Oneness is not the absolute reality, nor is twoness the absolute reality. The Two are One. You seem to be focused on only one aspect...the background while completely rejecting the other aspect...the foreground. Both are fundamental to the unity that is the universe.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No. Duality is just as fundamental as oneness. Every representation of the universe both man made and natural indicates both a dual nature and a unified nature. That is why I say interaction is everything. The "inter" represents the oneness, while the "action" represents that dual nature. The word interaction accurately describes both the dual and non-dual nature of the universe. It is not One, nor is it Two, rather it is more akin to Not-Two. I don't know how else to put it. Perhaps this is something you will have to realize for yourself. Oneness is not the absolute reality, nor is twoness the absolute reality. The Two are One. You seem to be focused on only one aspect...the background while completely rejecting the other aspect...the foreground. Both are fundamental to the unity that is the universe.

I understand what you are saying Runewolf....I hope this may be helpful....when there is no thinker...there is oneness...when there is a thinker...there is duality....it is logically impossible to be thinking and not thinking simultaneously...yes? Only the serious religious soul has ever realized oneness...all others can only understood oneness as an abstract concept..ie dualistically... That there is an eternal oneness and eternal movement within the oneness is a given.....and while the oneness contains the movement, the movement is not the oneness, but is of the oneness..

 

[Runewolf1973]

I understand what you are saying Runewolf....I hope this may be helpful....when there is no thinker...there is oneness...when there is a thinker...there is duality....it is logically impossible to be thinking and not thinking simultaneously...yes? Only the serious religious soul has ever realized oneness...all others can only understood oneness as an abstract concept..ie dualistically... That there is an eternal oneness and eternal movement within the oneness is a given.....and while the oneness contains the movement, the movement is not the oneness, but is of the oneness..

Why do you guys seem to make out "thinking" or identity to be some unnatural thing which has no place in reality?

It is all interaction which is a simultaneous oneness and duality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why do you guys seem to make out "thinking" or identity to be some unnatural thing which has no place in reality?

It is all interaction which is a simultaneous oneness and duality.

Who said thinking was unnatural...you are making it up....if you disagree..please quote my exact words that imply thinking is unnatural...or that it has no place in reality...that is just coming from your disturbed mind... Relax and read it again...

 

[Runewolf1973]

Who said thinking was unnatural...you are making it up....if you disagree..please quote my exact words that imply thinking is unnatural...or that it has no place in reality...that is just coming from your disturbed mind... Relax and read it again...

So are you then implying that thinking or conceptualization (duality) is a natural part of reality? Or is thinking or conceptualization (duality) pure fiction/illusion/nonexistant? Perhaps I was confusing with something Godnotgod seemed to imply...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So are you then implying that thinking or conceptualization (duality) is part of reality?

Of course it a part of reality...concepts are real, but they are not that which they represent... For example...I have actually seen a ghost...now everyone is familiar with the concept of ghost...but unless or until you have seen a ghost...you have no way of knowing if ghosts actually exist...though many may accept, be agnostic, of reject the possibility.. In a similar way with non-duality...unless or until one has realized non-duality.....there is no way of knowing if the realization of non-duality is possible or what it is...so people are left to accept, be agnostic, or reject the possible reality... So when I speak of non-duality...I understand non-conceptually what it is...while those who have not realized can only imagine/conceptualize or not what the reality is that the concept on non-duality stands for...

 

[Runewolf1973]

Of course it a part of reality...concepts are real, but they are not that which they represent... For example...I have actually seen a ghost...now everyone is familiar with the concept of ghost...but unless or until you have seen a ghost...you have no way of knowing if ghosts actually exist...though many may accept, be agnostic, of reject the possibility.. In a similar way with non-duality...unless or until one has realized non-duality.....there is no way of knowing if the realization of non-duality is possible or what it is...so people are left to accept, be agnostic, or reject the possible reality... So when I speak of non-duality...I understand non-conceptually what it is...while those who have not realized can only imagine/conceptualize or not what the reality is that the concept on non-duality stands for...

Hmmm... I guess I never really had a problem with accepting both duality and non-duality as each being part of reality. The universe started out as a singularity and expanded from that point (The Big Bang). It never exploded into separate bits, rather it remains a singularity to this day only on a much, much larger scale.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hmmm... I guess I never really had a problem with accepting both duality and non-duality as each being part of reality. The universe started out as a singularity and expanded from that point (The Big Bang). It never exploded into separate bits, rather it remains a singularity to this day only on a much, much larger scale.

Fair enough...you have evolved an understanding based on the preconception of a big bang type event....I onoh have no preconceptions about a beginning...there was not one for logical reasons...the oneness that is has never ceased being omnipresent...it can't have for logical reasons... We are now back on topic...nothingness does not and can not ever exist!

 

[godnotgod]

No. Duality is just as fundamental as oneness. Every representation of the universe both man made and natural indicates both a dual nature and a unified nature. That is why I say interaction is everything. The "inter" represents the oneness, while the "action" represents that dual nature. The word interaction accurately describes both the dual and non-dual nature of the universe. It is not One, nor is it Two, rather it is more akin to Not-Two. I don't know how else to put it. Perhaps this is something you will have to realize for yourself. Oneness is not the absolute reality, nor is twoness the absolute reality. The Two are One. You seem to be focused on only one aspect...the background while completely rejecting the other aspect...the foreground. Both are fundamental to the unity that is the universe.

To think 'One' or 'Two' is to set up relative values. What is important, I think, is to realize that as soon as one thinks 'Two', 'Two' (and everything that follows) is still always part of 'One'.

Ultimately, the Universe is neither dual nor non-dual, as this too is a dual concept. Only when you do not conceptualize either 'One' or 'Two' can you see things as they are. The moment one thinks 'One' or 'Two', one is plunged into duality.

But duality does not actually exist; it only comes into play when we conceptualize it as real. So what is ultimately real and beyond 'One' and 'Two'? Are we forgetting Zero, which is Nothingness, out of which 'One', and then 'Two' emerge? Nothingness is Absolute, and has no opposite, or relative, value. It is total negation, so there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

 

[godnotgod]

Hmmm... I guess I never really had a problem with accepting both duality and non-duality as each being part of reality. The universe started out as a singularity and expanded from that point (The Big Bang). It never exploded into separate bits, rather it remains a singularity to this day only on a much, much larger scale.

I keep pointing to Vivekenanda:

"The [seemingly dual) Universe is The [non-dual] Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"

IOW, we are looking at The Changeless Absolute, which is the true Reality, but seeing it as The Changing Universe, because our minds are conditioned to see it that way via Time, Space, and Causation. Remember what Chopra was trying to tell us? That, from the POV of the Third State of Consciousness, ie; 'Waking Sleep', or 'identification', we see all things changing, and that is reality to us on that level of awareness. But upon awakening to the next higher level, The Fourth, that of Self-Transcendence, we see that what only appeared as 'change' was just a dream. There really was no 'snake', but only the appearance of a snake, projected by the rope. However, in the case of the 'snake' it vanishes upon realization of its 'ropeness', but the Universe does not vanish upon realization of the fact that it is none other than The Absolute itself! The illusion of 'realness' continues, manifested as 'this world'. And that is precisely what new discoveries in Quantum Mechanics is beginning to reveal. Both on the micro and macro scales, there has been a shift in thinking away from materialism, both in the discovery of virtual mass created by Quantum fluctuations, and by the notion of 'a universe from nothing' as advanced by the theoretical phycisist Lawrence Krauss:

 

[Unification]

To think 'One' or 'Two' is to set up relative values. What is important, I think, is to realize that as soon as one thinks 'Two', 'Two' (and everything that follows) is still always part of 'One'.

Ultimately, the Universe is neither dual nor non-dual, as this too is a dual concept. Only when you do not conceptualize either 'One' or 'Two' can you see things as they are. The moment one thinks 'One' or 'Two', one is plunged into duality.

But duality does not actually exist; it only comes into play when we conceptualize it as real. So what is ultimately real and beyond 'One' and 'Two'? Are we forgetting Zero, which is Nothingness, out of which 'One', and then 'Two' emerge? Nothingness is Absolute, and has no opposite, or relative, value. It is total negation, so there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

A Zero-verse to a uni-verse to a dual-verse.

 

[godnotgod]

A Zero-verse to a uni-verse to a dual-verse.

Has anything actually changed?

'Now you see it; now you don't', or....

'Hide and Seek'

Q: Is the 'dual' idea just a notion in the human mind?

 

[Unification]

'Now you see it; now you don't', or....

'Hide and Seek'

Q: Is the 'dual' idea just a notion in the human mind?

Could nothingness be called a Nothing-verse? I was just referring to how you put it by placing values in front of verse, and no....everything is always one... the Uni-verse.

A: yes and no.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Q: Is the 'dual' idea just a notion in the human mind?

Yes!!!!!!!

 

[Unification]

Yes!!!!!!!

What would a dual and separated mind within a human experience?

 

[godnotgod]

What would a dual and separated mind within a human experience?

rephrase, please.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What would a dual and separated mind within a human experience?

A separated mind is not really separated, just the person thinks they are....they see the universe as being outside of themself and thus experience the duality of subjective 'I'ness on the one hand, and perceive all else in existence as objective 'not I' on the other...

 

[godnotgod]

A: yes and no.

What would the 'no' part be about?

 

[Runewolf1973]

You're saying things, but your not presenting anything. The matzah is that you are demonstrating a lack of positional actuality, yet writing things that neither support nor argue against anything. This is because you are not advancing your thought; your stagnating in the ego-self.

No. With eternal change and interaction, there is never stagnation. My position is neutral. That is the position of the universe as well...not one, not two...not loving, not hating...not living, not dead...not positive, not negative...not agreeing, not disagreeing. There is power and potential in neutrality. Because it does not pick sides, it can be ALL sides. The universe is infinite which is the ultimate in lack of positional actuality. It is not here, it is not there...it is everywhere.