Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[Runewolf1973]

To think 'One' or 'Two' is to set up relative values. What is important, I think, is to realize that as soon as one thinks 'Two', 'Two' (and everything that follows) is still always part of 'One'.

Ultimately, the Universe is neither dual nor non-dual, as this too is a dual concept. Only when you do not conceptualize either 'One' or 'Two' can you see things as they are. The moment one thinks 'One' or 'Two', one is plunged into duality.

But duality does not actually exist; it only comes into play when we conceptualize it as real. So what is ultimately real and beyond 'One' and 'Two'? Are we forgetting Zero, which is Nothingness, out of which 'One', and then 'Two' emerge? Nothingness is Absolute, and has no opposite, or relative, value. It is total negation, so there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared.

You can negate the universe all you want. I'll just keep interacting as one with the universe.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Fair enough...you have evolved an understanding based on the preconception of a big bang type event....I onoh have no preconceptions about a beginning...there was not one for logical reasons...the oneness that is has never ceased being omnipresent...it can't have for logical reasons... We are now back on topic...nothingness does not and can not ever exist!

I don't see the Big Bang as a beginning, I see it as the continuation of a previous event in another form. I see the universe as eternal....without beginning or end. The Big Bang event is just one way of understanding the oneness of the universe and how everything is connected, but it is not the only way.

I don't ascribe to the nothingness view.

 

[godnotgod]

You can negate the universe all you want. I'll just keep interacting as one with the universe.

You're just part of the Big Act, pretending to be something It's not.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't see the Big Bang as a beginning, I see it as the continuation of a previous event in another form. I see the universe as eternal....without beginning or end. The Big Bang event is just one way of understanding the oneness of the universe and how everything is connected, but it is not the only way.

I don't ascribe to the nothingness view.

Because of Nothingness, there can be Everything, including you.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You're just part of the Big Act, pretending to be something It's not.

Well sure, matter is not what it seems, consciousness is not what it seems. It is all nothing more than the interactive, Fundamental Forces of nature at work pretending to be solid matter. The universe pretends to be a lot of things, but the one thing it is not is pure nothingness/consciousness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Because of Nothingness, there can be Everything, including you.

Everything always existed in one form or another.

 

[godnotgod]

Everything always existed in one form or another.

Yes, as Pure Potential, safely tucked away in Pure Nothingness.

neat, eh?

*The Lost Pearl*

The Yellow Emperor went wandering
To the north of the Red Water
To the Kwan Lun mountain. He looked
around
Over the edge of the world. On the way
home
He lost his night-colored pearl*.
He sent out Science to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent Analysis to look for his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent out Logic to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
Then he asked Nothingness, and
Nothingness had it!
The Yellow Emperor said:
“Strange, indeed: Nothingness
Who was not sent
Who did no work to find it
Had the night-colored pearl!”

from “The Way of Chuang Tzu,” trans Merton

*Original Nature

 

[godnotgod]

Well sure, matter is not what it seems, consciousness is not what it seems. It is all nothing more than the interactive, Fundamental Forces of nature at work pretending to be solid matter. The universe pretends to be a lot of things, but the one thing it is not is pure nothingness/consciousness.

It's not the universe pretending; it's The Absolute playing itself as 'The Universe'. We don't see it as The Absolute because of maya (ie Time, Space, and Causation).

"Since it (The Absolute) is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html

 

[Runewolf1973]

Yes, as Pure Potential, safely tucked away in Pure Nothingness.

neat, eh?

*The Lost Pearl*

The Yellow Emperor went wandering
To the north of the Red Water
To the Kwan Lun mountain. He looked
around
Over the edge of the world. On the way
home
He lost his night-colored pearl*.
He sent out Science to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent Analysis to look for his pearl,
and got nothing.
He sent out Logic to seek his pearl,
and got nothing.
Then he asked Nothingness, and
Nothingness had it!
The Yellow Emperor said:
“Strange, indeed: Nothingness
Who was not sent
Who did no work to find it
Had the night-colored pearl!”

from “The Way of Chuang Tzu,” trans Merton

*Original Nature

Potential is not nothingness.

 

[Unification]

A separated mind is not really separated, just the person thinks they are....they see the universe as being outside of themself and thus experience the duality of subjective 'I'ness on the one hand, and perceive all else in existence as objective 'not I' on the other...

I agree with most of this, but a separated mind is separated... suffering is very real, the physical plane is very real, the experience is very real. I wouldn't even say they "think" they are, they don't "know, realize, or understand" that they are. They aren't aware of what they do, and aren't knowing their true nature.

I see it as a conscious and subconscious mind with no ego working together as one in harmony. That is "higher consciousness," "super consciousness," "cosmic consciousness," "oneness/at-one-ment," the "Christ conscious/mind of Christ," "the Buddah conscious," or whatever one wants to call it which doesn't matter. The union of the conscious and subconscious mind. In order to do so, the ego must be denied and overcome.

I then also see it as we are talking about... a conscious and subconscious mind separated, not working together as one in harmony because of the ego being in flight within someone.

So while yes, their false sense of self/I/ego is an illusion... it's also a real experience. It's this very real experience and needing the anomaly of the "ego/I/self" to experience the physical plane.

That's where I get the yes and no but I understand what you're saying and don't disagree.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It's not the universe pretending; it's The Absolute playing itself as 'The Universe'. We don't see it as The Absolute because of maya (ie Time, Space, and Causation).

"Since it (The Absolute) is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html

This playing itself as that. This pretending to be that. Duality.

 

[godnotgod]

Potential is not nothingness.

Well it's certainly not 'some-thing', as in 'tangible' or 'material'.

Science calls it 'potential'

Mystics call it 'consciousness', which is outside of Time and Space, just like Nothingness is.

 

[godnotgod]

This playing itself as that. This pretending to be that. Duality.

No. It's this, which IS That.

'The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

It is because of Time, Space, and Causation that we see it as 'this' and 'that'. It is not actually so.

You still want to interpret what you see in dualistic terms.

 

[Unification]

It's not the universe pretending; it's The Absolute playing itself as 'The Universe'. We don't see it as The Absolute because of maya (ie Time, Space, and Causation).

"Since it (The Absolute) is not in time, it cannot be changing. Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because dividedness and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html

That's the key, "WE don't see it as."

That's why I said yes and no.
No, because of what you just said... Time/space/casuality ... the physical plane. It is very real. The illusion is not believing, not yet knowing/understanding that there is something beyond the physical senses, physical plane.

 

[Runewolf1973]

No. It's this, which IS That.

'The Universe IS The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

It is because of Time, Space, and Causation that we see it as 'this' and 'that'. It is not actually so.

You still want to interpret what you see in dualistic terms.

No, I interpret it as interaction which is neither truly dualistic, nor is it truly singular. It is the very real combined duality/oneness of the cosmos.

 

[godnotgod]

No, I interpret it as interaction which is neither truly dualistic, nor is it truly singular. It is the very real combined duality/oneness of the cosmos.

But if it's an illusion or a dream, then where is the 'very real' 'interaction' that is the 'duality/oneness of the cosmos'. If it is The Absolute playing itself as The Universe, then the play of duality is just that: a play, which you are seeing and interpreting as 'interaction' that is real. You call it 'duality' because you think it to be 'two' when it is actually not, 'two' being just an idea in your head.

Can you see how 'this' is actually 'that', and therefore non-dual?

 

[godnotgod]

That's the key, "WE don't see it as."

That's why I said yes and no.
No, because of what you just said... Time/space/casuality ... the physical plane. It is very real. The illusion is not believing, not yet knowing/understanding that there is something beyond the physical senses, physical plane.

OK

 

[Runewolf1973]

But if it's an illusion or a dream, then where is the 'very real' 'interaction' that is the 'duality/oneness of the cosmos'. If it is The Absolute playing itself as The Universe, then the play of duality is just that: a play, which you are seeing and interpreting as 'interaction' that is real. You call it 'duality' because you think it to be 'two' when it is actually not, 'two' being just an idea in your head.

Can you see how 'this' is actually 'that', and therefore non-dual?

Something like solid matter may be an illusion, but that is not the same as saying it is non-existant nothingness. You are also misinterpreting what I say. Interaction is neither a true duality, nor is it a true singularity. It is unification ie: "uni-verse". I do not think of interaction or anything for that matter as being a true duality "two", nor is it a true singularity "one". It is All.

 

[godnotgod]

Something like solid matter may be an illusion, but that is not the same as saying it is non-existant nothingness. You are also misinterpreting what I say. Interaction is neither a true duality, nor is it a true singularity. It is unification ie: "uni-verse". I do not think of interaction or anything for that matter as being a true duality "two", nor is it a true singularity "one". It is All.

If something is an illusion, that means it is not the 'something' that it appears to be. Not being 'something' it can then only be 'nothing'.

What you see as being 'two' is always at one with the Whole. There is no such thing as 'two', 'two' being only an idea in the mind.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If something is an illusion, that means it is not the 'something' that it appears to be. Not being 'something' it can then only be 'nothing'.

What you see as being 'two' is always at one with the Whole. There is no such thing as 'two', 'two' being only an idea in the mind.

You have misinterpreted the word illusion. It means to indicate something which is not what it seems. For example: matter appears to be solid, but it is actually the strong forces which make matter seem impenetrable or "solid". That is not the same as saying those forces don't exist. Seeing something which does not in fact exist is called a hallucination.

Furthermore, the mind is a natural existing part of this universe as well. To simply toss it aside or say it does not exist equates to not accepting the universe as a whole.