Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[godnotgod]

You have misinterpreted the word illusion. It means to indicate something which is not what it seems. For example: matter appears to be solid, but it is actually the strong forces which make matter seem impenetrable or "solid". That is not the same as saying those forces don't exist. Seeing something which does not in fact exist is called a hallucination.

Furthermore, the mind is a natural existing part of this universe as well. To simply toss it aside or say it does not exist equates to not accepting the universe as a whole.

What makes you think the mind is real? How is it that you dismiss consciousness but acknowledge 'mind'?

The world is not what it seems. It is an illusion. It is none other than The Absolute, seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation. It is The Absolute, acting as if it is the world. IOW, maya.

 

[Runewolf1973]

What makes you think the mind is real? How is it that you dismiss consciousness but acknowledge 'mind'?

The world is not what it seems. It is an illusion. It is none other than The Absolute, seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation. It is The Absolute, acting as if it is the world. IOW, maya.

It is all interactive forces at work. The illusion is this feeling "consciousness" we have. Another illusion is how we percieve matter to be solid.


What makes you think consciousness is some sort of ultimate reality? I can dismiss personal experience...especially if you are prone to hallucinations. Illusion is not the same as nothingness. Illusion is when something appears to be something else.

 

[godnotgod]

Illusion is not the same as nothingness. Illusion is when something appears to be something else.

If you suddenly see a rope moving in the wind and think it to be a snake, the 'snake' is an illusion. It does not exist. It is no-thing. It is nothing at all. Only the rope is real. The rope is a metaphor for The Absolute, and the snake for The Universe. You look at the Universe and think it is moving, made up of particles. You think you are proving this movement and the existence of particles with a tool of Reason called Science. You cannot see the rope for the snake because your mind is conditioned to see it as moving 'snake'.

"If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
*****

"The snake appears on the rope; the rope does not undergo any change*, but the snake is supported by the rope, (meaning that, without the rope there is no snake). But in reality the snake was never there and so it is also true to say that the snake is not in the rope. To the question: "Where is the snake?", the answer is: "it is in the rope."

To the question; "Is the snake there?", the answer is: "there is no snake; the snake was never in the rope.""

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/true-nature-of-the-universe-what-is-maya.83861/

*this is the meaning of 'The Changeless'

 

[Runewolf1973]

If you suddenly see a rope moving in the wind and think it to be a snake, the 'snake' is an illusion. It does not exist. It is no-thing. It is nothing at all. Only the rope is real. The rope is a metaphor for The Absolute, and the snake for The Universe. You look at the Universe and think it is moving, made up of particles. You think you are proving this movement and the existence of particles with a tool of Reason called Science. You cannot see the rope for the snake because your mind is conditioned to see it as moving 'snake'.

"If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

http://quanta-gaia.org/dobson/EquationsOfMaya.html
*****

"The snake appears on the rope; the rope does not undergo any change*, but the snake is supported by the rope, (meaning that, without the rope there is no snake). But in reality the snake was never there and so it is also true to say that the snake is not in the rope. To the question: "Where is the snake?", the answer is: "it is in the rope."

To the question; "Is the snake there?", the answer is: "there is no snake; the snake was never in the rope.""

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/true-nature-of-the-universe-what-is-maya.83861/

*this is the meaning of 'The Changeless'

The illusion of the snake was generated by an actual physical object which had a similar characteristic shape and movement as a snake...the rope. It's a cute metaphor, but I don't see how it compares to an "illusion" generated out of pure nothingness.

How does nothing generate the illusion of something?

 

[godnotgod]

The illusion of the snake was generated by an actual physical object which had a similar characteristic shape and movement as a snake...the rope. It's a cute metaphor, but I don't see how it compares to an "illusion" generated out of pure nothingness.

It's just a metaphor, and as such, has limitations. Obviously The Absolute, represented by the metaphor of the rope, is not a limited physical object, and the 'snake', a metaphor for The Universe, vanishes upon detection, while The Universe continues to appear.

How does nothing generate the illusion of something?

You are a hair's breadth away from the answer, which is contained in your question. Just keep meditating on your question until it dawns on you.

 

[`mud]

Ahhhhhhhh......ILLUSIONS,
this thread is loaded with them !
Like the dimensions in a true void,
and the center of nothingness,
and passing through infinity !
~
Life is an illusion, only stuff is real,
for awhile, while we're conscious of it,
but not a moment further than our death.
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

Ahhhhhhhh......ILLUSIONS,
this thread is loaded with them !
Like the dimensions in a true void,
and the center of nothingness,
and passing through infinity !
~
Life is an illusion, only stuff is real,
for awhile, while we're conscious of it,
but not a moment further than our death.
~
'mud

Who is it that lives?
Who is it that dies?

 

[`mud]

hey GNG,
That with conscious awareness with that existence before one.
That with no present cognizance of any existence of anything.
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

As smart as one thinks of oneself,
there's always someone out there,
who wants to complicate the stuff around itself.
Life is Stuff.......deal with it !
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

hey GNG,
That with conscious awareness with that existence before one.
That with no present cognizance of any existence of anything.
~
'mud

Bear in mind that this is to say that there is no consciousness of a self, not that there is no consciousness perse.

 

[Runewolf1973]

It's just a metaphor, and as such, has limitations. Obviously The Absolute, represented by the metaphor of the rope, is not a limited physical object, and the 'snake', a metaphor for The Universe, vanishes upon detection, while The Universe continues to appear.



You are a hair's breadth away from the answer, which is contained in your question. Just keep meditating on your question until it dawns on you.

I want a straight answer to the question.

 

[godnotgod]

I want a straight answer to the question.

"Your papers, please!", LOL!

 

[Runewolf1973]

"Your papers, please!", LOL!

Lame...

 

[godnotgod]

Lame...

Think about what you're asking.

 

[Straw Dog]

Agree, I look at it as the planet Earth.
There is the West and there is the East. Then there is the middle. The current state in the middle is suffering. It's due to the West/East divide. The East assumes they run laps over the West while the West assumes they run laps over the East.

A static state in the West will see the East as nonsensical. A static state in the East will see the West as nonsensical. An us vs. them.

Rather than identify as one and whole and seeing all human beings the same and diverse, we identify in what we want. There is not much liberation and freedom to see the other side. Rather than combine rationality/reason with spirituality, it's usually one extreme side. Many gates of the brain/mind are closed off to anything out of ones comfort zone. Not many want to get real and play the other part/side. Neurological plasticity is too painful for most.

We see that clearly on this thread. The intellectuals in the West and others that are both in the West and East, and others in the East. An us vs. them.

It is no different within the individual human brain and mind. It is imbalanced, separated, and divided.

Most are busy looking exoterically, rather than within and realizing their own imbalance. They have no problems saying that to others while failing to do so themselves.

Yes, it is natural for life to exist in a state of non-equilibrium. We're still dancing and the music never really stops. Nothing ever ends. It's not so bad if you can get into the groove.

What is perfect rationality? What is perfect spirituality? What is perfection anyway? It seems contrary to plasticity. Attempting to occupy a middle state between two perceived extremes is just as rigid as being totally polarized. There is no solid ground, so dance and dance... and just keep dancing!

 

[Straw Dog]

But now, you see, there is the identity itself, and the identifier of the identity. And who, or what, is it that is the observer/identifier/knower of the enclave? You see the dilemma?

There is only the identity that naturally emerges and the project of observation.

What do you observe?

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, it is natural for life to exist in a state of non-equilibrium. We're still dancing and the music never really stops. Nothing ever ends. It's not so bad if you can get into the groove.

What is perfect rationality? What is perfect spirituality? What is perfection anyway? It seems contrary to plasticity. Attempting to occupy a middle state between two perceived extremes is just as rigid as being totally polarized. There is no solid ground, so dance and dance... and just keep dancing!

The dancing occurs against the background of Perfection.

"Whatever we see is changing, losing its balance. The reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony. This is how everything exists in the realm of Buddha Nature, losing its balance against a background of perfect balance. So if you see things without realizing the background of Buddha Nature, everything appears to be in the form of suffering. But if you understand the background of existence, you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we extend our life. So in Zen we sometimes emphasize the imbalance or disorder of life."

Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, by Shunryu Suzuki

 

[godnotgod]

There is only the identity that naturally emerges and the project of observation.

Before this 'identity that naturally emerges', what is there? Is there still consciousness?

 

[Straw Dog]

The dancing occurs against the background of Perfection.

"Whatever we see is changing, losing its balance. The reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony. This is how everything exists in the realm of Buddha Nature, losing its balance against a background of perfect balance. So if you see things without realizing the background of Buddha Nature, everything appears to be in the form of suffering. But if you understand the background of existence, you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we extend our life. So in Zen we sometimes emphasize the imbalance or disorder of life."

Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, by Shunryu Suzuki[/QUOTE

Did Suzuki ever realize total satori?

We project our notions of 'perfect balance' onto the mysterious background. There is a real dissonance between our most cherished perfect ideals and how events actually unfold.

 

[Straw Dog]

Before this 'identity that naturally emerges', what is there? Is there still consciousness?

You underestimate unconscious processes. Are you totally aware of everything happening?