Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[Runewolf1973]

Think about what you're asking.

The dancing occurs against the background of Perfection.

"Whatever we see is changing, losing its balance. The reason everything looks beautiful is because it is out of balance, but its background is always in perfect harmony. This is how everything exists in the realm of Buddha Nature, losing its balance against a background of perfect balance. So if you see things without realizing the background of Buddha Nature, everything appears to be in the form of suffering. But if you understand the background of existence, you realize that suffering itself is how we live, and how we extend our life. So in Zen we sometimes emphasize the imbalance or disorder of life."

Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, by Shunryu Suzuki

Well...sufferin' succotash.

 

[godnotgod]

There is only the identity that naturally emerges and the project of observation.

Before this 'identity that naturally emerges', what is there? Is there still consciousness?

You underestimate unconscious processes. Are you totally aware of everything happening?

That's not my question. Is there identity present in the 'unconscious processes'?

You beat your heart, digest your food, breath, etc. all without a conscious attention of an 'I' that is doing these things.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, it is natural for life to exist in a state of non-equilibrium.

What is perfect rationality? What is perfect spirituality? What is perfection anyway?

Did Suzuki ever realize total satori?

We project our notions of 'perfect balance' onto the mysterious background. There is a real dissonance between our most cherished perfect ideals and how events actually unfold.

'Non-equilibrium' can be seen as 'imperfection'. If you have a concept of what is imperfect, then you automatically introduce that which is Perfect.

When you realize that there is no difference between the background and the foreground, it is then that you can see Perfection as something real. Until then, you will only see it as a projection onto the background.

When you recognize a state of non-equilibrium; when you talk about imperfection, it is already from a state of Perfection that you are doing so. Otherwise you would not have any such notions of what is imperfect.

 

[humanelk]

'Non-equilibrium' can be seen as 'imperfection'. If you have a concept of what is imperfect, then you automatically introduce that which is Perfect.

When you realize that there is no difference between the background and the foreground, it is then that you can see Perfection as something real. Until then, you will only see it as a projection onto the background.

When you recognize a state of non-equilibrium; when you talk about imperfection, it is already from a state of Perfection that you are doing so. Otherwise you would not have any such notions of what is imperfect.

You're pretending to know what it's like to be disembodied.. Pretending you have access to a realm which lacks any sensation in which to ground or describe your experience. You're assuming that every experience must have a dualist opposing experience, even if that experience must be invented. I don't see the benefit of trying to imagine this disembodied realm, nor do I think it's even possible to contemplate "nothingness" since everything we experience is contextual and immersive.

 

[Unification]

Yes, it is natural for life to exist in a state of non-equilibrium. We're still dancing and the music never really stops. Nothing ever ends. It's not so bad if you can get into the groove.

What is perfect rationality? What is perfect spirituality? What is perfection anyway? It seems contrary to plasticity. Attempting to occupy a middle state between two perceived extremes is just as rigid as being totally polarized. There is no solid ground, so dance and dance... and just keep dancing!

The middle allows one to experience and be open to all sides and all dancing equally and limitless.

One extreme side or the other allows one to be closed off to the other side and be unequal and limited.

Polarity... that's what life and experience is.

There is no perfection. There is the perfectly imperfect just as things are.

I prefer to dance, dance, and keep on dancing without harming others in any way.

Some dance, dance, and keep on dancing while harming others.

 

[gnostic]

If nothingness has dimension of any type, I don't think it can be nothing anymore.

 

[godnotgod]

You're pretending to know what it's like to be disembodied.. Pretending you have access to a realm which lacks any sensation in which to ground or describe your experience. You're assuming that every experience must have a dualist opposing experience, even if that experience must be invented. I don't see the benefit of trying to imagine this disembodied realm, nor do I think it's even possible to contemplate "nothingness" since everything we experience is contextual and immersive.

There is no 'other' realm. This is it. What 'other' realm are you talking about?

The concept of imperfection automatically generates one of perfection, but we don't notice the opposite value because it is passive; we are focused on the foreground, that of imperfection. These are relative values. Then there is an absolute above both of them.

Yes, the foreground of existence is contextual and immersive in the background of existence, just as the fish is immersed into the sea, but does not know he is in the sea. Likewise, we focus on the foreground of existence, forgetting the all important background out of which the foreground comes. Because we do, we create the illusion of separation and independence, when the fact of the matter is that we are never separated or independent from the background. Only the self-generated concept of 'I' likes to think so.

 

[godnotgod]

If nothingness has dimension of any type, I don't think it can be nothing anymore.

No, it cannot be so encapsulated.

 

[godnotgod]

The middle allows one to experience and be open to all sides and all dancing equally and limitless.

One extreme side or the other allows one to be closed off to the other side and be unequal and limited.

Polarity... that's what life and experience is.

There is no perfection. There is the perfectly imperfect just as things are.

I prefer to dance, dance, and keep on dancing without harming others in any way.

Some dance, dance, and keep on dancing while harming others.

To dance out of a sense of ecstasy is an extension of Perfect Absolute Joy.

 

[humanelk]

There is no 'other' realm. This is it. What 'other' realm are you talking about?

The concept of imperfection automatically generates one of perfection, but we don't notice the opposite value because it is passive; we are focused on the foreground, that of imperfection. These are relative values. Then there is an absolute above both of them.

Yes, the foreground of existence is contextual and immersive in the background of existence, just as the fish is immersed into the sea, but does not know he is in the sea. Likewise, we focus on the foreground of existence, forgetting the all important background out of which the foreground comes. Because we do, we create the illusion of separation and independence, when the fact of the matter is that we are never separated or independent from the background. Only the self-generated concept of 'I' likes to think so.

I think I agree with your last paragraph, although you use different terms than I would, but I especially have difficulty with the terms "imperfection" and "perfection" and I'm not sure if it's a matter of you not defining the terms, or if I actually disagree with your premise.

 

[outhouse]

If nothingness has dimension of any type, I don't think it can be nothing anymore.

That is a wise answer.

You will find most people that try and define nothing show more about themselves then nothing itself.

Their definition is only a reflection of their conscious mind, it often has nothing to do with nothing

Your statement did not fit this profile

 

[Straw Dog]

I prefer to dance, dance, and keep on dancing without harming others in any way.

Some dance, dance, and keep on dancing while harming others.

Yes, I would also like to dance without harming others. I really do love other people. I'd like to think that I am mostly harmless, but is it possible to be alive and totally harmless?

 

[Straw Dog]

'Non-equilibrium' can be seen as 'imperfection'. If you have a concept of what is imperfect, then you automatically introduce that which is Perfect.

When you realize that there is no difference between the background and the foreground, it is then that you can see Perfection as something real. Until then, you will only see it as a projection onto the background.

When you recognize a state of non-equilibrium; when you talk about imperfection, it is already from a state of Perfection that you are doing so. Otherwise you would not have any such notions of what is imperfect.

We seek to conceptualize reality perfectly. However, a perfect concept is already a dead concept. What concept is still living in the same form as it was before?

 

[godnotgod]

I think I agree with your last paragraph, although you use different terms than I would, but I especially have difficulty with the terms "imperfection" and "perfection" and I'm not sure if it's a matter of you not defining the terms, or if I actually disagree with your premise.

Hello humanelk:

I am using the term 'imperfection' as it alludes to an incorrect view of Reality. This 'imperfect vision', as it were, is a highly conditioned view via our social indoctrination and learning history. Perfect Vision would be that without any such conditioning; IOW, a vision that simply sees things as they are. The rational approach to knowledge is via accumulation of a body of data and facts sufficient to establish a premise of some sort, and then to build upon that via experimentation and other related facts. But a Perfect View of Reality comes via subtraction of knowledge and opinion, day by day, until one reaches an empty mind, emptied of all thought, idea, opinion, or belief. This is about SEEING, rather than thinking.

"Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinion"
Seng-ts'an, Third Zen Patriarch

 

[godnotgod]

We seek to conceptualize reality perfectly. However, a perfect concept is already a dead concept. What concept is still living in the same form as it was before?

None. A Perfect view of Reality would be one that is unconditioned by any kind of conceptual knowledge, and one which simply sees things as they actually are.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, I would also like to dance without harming others. I really do love other people. I'd like to think that I am mostly harmless, but is it possible to be alive and totally harmless?

Yes! That is the best way to be alive in this world...and truly happy! Such people have nothing to defend, and therefore, take no offence.

 

[Runewolf1973]

None. A Perfect view of Reality would be one that is unconditioned by any kind of conceptual knowledge, and one which simply sees things as they actually are.

A tree.

 

[godnotgod]

A tree.

Child: "Grampa monk, what is the color of that tree?"
Monk: "Why, it's the color that it is!"

 

[godnotgod]

Nothing is the fundamental Reality, and out of it, comes Everything.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Nothing is the fundamental Reality, and out of it, comes Everything.

A rather muddled attempt by Alan Watts to explain sunyata. But this stuff is surely incompatible with"cosmic consciousness"?