Countries banning of kosher meats are forcing "expulsion" of Jews

[IndigoChild5559]

This is not rocket surgery. There is nothing pivotal or monumentally dire (in a spiritual sense) about the method of slaughter. The meat is not changed one tangible bit. It should not be this big of a fuss to leave behind ancient practices in favor of more modern and ethical techniques. Especially when the "kosher" and "halal" forms of slaughter have been shown to be less ethical, cause more suffering - no matter how brief - and have been awash in controversy for decades.

What you are basically saying is to do it in such a way that it no longer meets the standards of being kosher.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We also banned Halal, or whatever it is called, and the construction of minarets on our soil.

Why in the world would you ban minarets???? What a horrible violation of freedom of religion. How medieval!! It has no place in a modern democracy. So much for your ethically advanced country. No wonder you also violate the rights of Jews and Muslims to perform kosher/halal slaughter.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What you are basically saying is to do it in such a way that it no longer meets the standards of being kosher.

And what, exactly, makes it "kosher" or not? Why must kosher be unchanging, when there are factually better ways?

 

[viole]

Why in the world would you ban minarets???? What a horrible violation of freedom of religion. How medieval!! It has no place in a modern democracy. So much for your ethically advanced country. No wonder you also violate the rights of Jews and Muslims to perform kosher/halal slaughter.

Why? Can you imagine minarets in Switzerland? That would be like mixing a Bach or Mozart sonata with the scream of a Muezzin. Who would do that?

And by the way, freedom of religion is always submitted to secular law. If the two have a conflict, the former loses.

And if the pious is not happy, he or she is perfectly free to find places spiritually more consonant for him or her.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are probably thinking of the abuses, such as with Agriprocessors. These are times when Kosher isn't "kosher." Jews are similarly outraged.

When kosher slaughter is done correcty, such is not the case.

Prove it. You would need an unimpeded video of kosher slaughter of beef and lambs. When one can see the process it is not painless.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, that is a strange law considering that from a physical point of view you have no way to say the difference. It is entirely possible that you ate a lot of non kosher meat without knowing.

And I cannot imagine the creator of the whole Universe caring about how you cook meat.

Suppose you did eat some non kosher meat, what happens? To your soul or whatever. Could you say the difference?

Ciao

- viole

We obey God whether or not we understand the purpose of the law, first off.

There has been plenty of speculation as to why kashrut exists. The suggestion that makes most sense to me is that it prevents idolatry in the following way:

Harry Hebrew of the ancient Israelites is not restricted by kashrut, so he attends a Canaanite wedding where he can feast. At the celebration, he meets a Canaanite woman and they are mutually attracted. To make a long story short, they are married. And lo and behold, he finds a statue of Baal in his home.

It is the same nowadays. Joe Jew goes for pepperoni pizza. There he meets Cindy Christian. They hit it off, fall in love, and are married. And, not surprisingly, he finds a Christmas tree in his living room.

Food leads to socialization. Socialization leads to marriage. Marriage leads to sharing of religions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hey, I know... Lets pass laws that force people to stun animals because everyone has to do what we say, er else!

In fact, lets ban hunting altogether because we are all a bunch of ****ies.

Hunting provides an important control on wild animal populations. Over population causes multiple problems. And any decent hunter tries to take down his prey with one shot. I could never understand why one would want a semi-automatic deer rifle.

 

[rosends]

Well, that is a strange law considering that from a physical point of view you have no way to say the difference. It is entirely possible that you ate a lot of non kosher meat without knowing.

Why would what I know make it a strange law? The law is the law regardless of anything else. The police won't know if I run a red light at 3AM (and if I drive with my eyes closed, neither will I). You say something is possible, and I can't disagree. I can only rely on the labeling and care I and others take. If whoever calibrated my speedometer wasn't careful, I might have speeded (sped?) without knowing it. That doesn't change the speed limit.

And I cannot imagine the creator of the whole Universe caring about how you cook meat.

OK. I understand it is difficult to comprehend the infinite. I don't think anyone really can. That isn't how we (as Jews) validate or justify our adherence. We assume that the law as given is the law without trying to judge if we think God really thinks it matters.

Suppose you did eat some non kosher meat, what happens? To your soul or whatever. Could you say the difference?

Intentionally or not? If intentionally, then I would (if I cared) have to repent and change. If I speed and flout that rule, but I decide I care about law and order I should feel bad, and not do it again. If it was an accident I might try to be more aware, but there is no real consequence. Judaism doesn't say that we have to be able to perceive any difference.

 

[rosends]

And what, exactly, makes it "kosher" or not? Why must kosher be unchanging, when there are factually better ways?

That begs all sorts of questions, most of which would not have satisfying answers. Claiming "factually better" ways requires being able to judge the method on a particular scale. But if that isn't the scale to start with then, it will be much more difficult to assert that anything is better.

 

[Cooky]

And what, exactly, makes it "kosher" or not? Why must kosher be unchanging, when there are factually better ways?

Are you one of those people who forces everyone to do stuff your way..? Should hunting be banned too?

 

[Cooky]

That begs all sorts of questions, most of which would not have satisfying answers. Claiming "factually better" ways requires being able to judge the method on a particular scale. But if that isn't the scale to start with then, it will be much more difficult to assert that anything is better.

Rosends, I don't know your political leanings, but this is exactly what I hate about the tyrannical progressive left.

People who pass laws like this are anti-freedom.

 

[rosends]

Rosends, I don't know your political leanings, but this is exactly what I hate about the tyrannical progressive left.

I have no leanings. I am an anarchist hermit. I am alone and don't know who is in charge.

 

[David1967]

These are the Jews who practice Orthodox and Conservative Judaism.

Are these the ones who are "unclean" if a gentile touches them.

It would be a hefty loss.

Loss of what?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And what, exactly, makes it "kosher" or not? Why must kosher be unchanging, when there are factually better ways?

What is kosher is determined by Jewish law, which is like case law, if an analogy to Western law can be given. You have the original law, which is that there is a particular way to slaughter animals that is pleasing to God, but it is not specified in Torah. Therefore it has to be specified by Oral Torah. Some say that Oral Torah was given by God directly to Moses and that the courts rediscovered it or confirmed it. Others say it was determined by the courts themselves as history went along.

Let me see if I can remember everything to do with Kashrut:

1. The animal must be a clean animal: an animal with coven hooves and chews cud (obviously no pork or rabbit), fish that has fins and scales (IOW no shellfish, sorry lobster), and certain birds excluded, mostly birds of prey (basically we eat chicken, duck, goose, and turkey).
2. It must be sheched properly (kosher slaughter) meaning that it must be conscious at the time of slaughter, and the cutting is done a certain way which ensures quick and relatively pain free death, drained of blood and salted to remove as much remaining blood as possible.
3. It must be cooked in pans and vats which are not cross contaminated with non-kosher food.
4. Dairy and Meat must be carefully kept separate.
5. Separate dishes are used for meat and dairy, as well as separate areas in the refrigerator, sink, etc. So that there is no accidental mixing, even of residue.

Shortcuts for kosher foods are simply to buy certified kosher meats, and foods with a kosher hechsher (symbol).

 

[rosends]

Are these the ones who are "unclean" if a gentile touches them.

Huh? I've been an Orthodox Jew for a really long time (longer every day, actually) and have never heard that.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Hunting provides an important control on wild animal populations. Over population causes multiple problems. And any decent hunter tries to take down his prey with one shot. I could never understand why one would want a semi-automatic deer rifle.

Is death by hunting a painless death?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Prove it. You would need an unimpeded video of kosher slaughter of beef and lambs. When one can see the process it is not painless.

I can show you a video of the calming that goes on before hand, but no one with a conscience really wants to show innocents the death of an animal.

 

[Revoltingest]

They don't absolutely HAVE to.
Some Jews are not kosher.
Some Jews who are kosher are vegetarian or pescatarian.
Some Jews maintain a quasi kosher state where they eat clean meats, but the cheaper non-kosher meats.

But there are many, many Jews who will not give up meat and that meat has to be kosher. These are the Jews who practice Orthodox and Conservative Judaism. It would be a hefty loss.

Just wait til MGM (circumcision of infants) gets banned.
Then they'll really be screaming "Anti-semitism!".

Everyone has to make the decision if their country's laws
are so unacceptable that they must move. Jews, Muslims,
Christians, & even we atheists. I faced it too during the draft.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are these the ones who are "unclean" if a gentile touches them.



Loss of what?

I don't know of any Jews who are unclean if a Gentile touches them. Jewish men regularly shake hands with Gentiles, even in Orthodoxy.

Loss of a considerable portion of the Jewish community.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Rosends, I don't know your political leanings, but this is exactly what I hate about the tyrannical progressive left.

People who pass laws like this are anti-freedom.

The problem is that from what I have seen the discomfort of animals that have had their throats cut is obvious. They are in special pens and they still kick and writhe. That is why I asked for a video by those that claim it to be humane.

When one goes hunting one is limited too. One can't shoot endless amounts of game. One can't use lead shot anywhere that ducks or geese go since they ingest that shot and can get lead poisoning without being shot. The number of shells that shotguns can have is limited so crazies don't fill the sky with pellets and wounded birds. I used to hunt, and probably will not hunt any longer since I would have to learn all over again. But I know that hunting provides a much need purpose now that we have all but eliminated predators. Area in the eastern U.S. where the left has banned hunting at times have serious deer problems. Not just from car accidents caused by deer, but also by overpopulation and the diseases that often go with it.