Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

[SkepticThinker]

"simpliticism"..... I had to look that word up.....I think you made it up.

Did you ever consider the reason why people choose to opt out of the orthodox medical system?
Could it be that they were sick and tired of being.....sick and tired?

If the medical establishment was effecting cures and treatments with no horrendous side effects, and people were actually getting well with their "treatments", then there would be no need to search for an alternative in the first place. Thank God the alternative practitioners and health food stores exist.....but we wonder for how long? So many people are choosing these as a way to get healthy. Do they make money off this? Of course they do, but what about the cost in the orthodox system?...and with not much in the way of a success rate in curing anyone. I have had more results with natural therapists than I ever had with doctors.

How many ways are we exposed to the things that make us sick? Aren't they all man made? It seems as if the world we live in at present is designed by greedy humans to deliberately accomplish this.

I have also had way more success in treating illness by preventing it than by taking pills to suppress symptoms of something my body was telling me was wrong. Naturopaths are like doctors....some of them are complete quacks. But I have found that good alternative practitioners are very good at diagnosing and treating the cause of disease rather than just masking the symptoms with artificial chemicals. The whole pharma industry is based on "artificial" substances that are not compatible with the human body.....that is what causes the side effects....and there are always a long list of them.....or haven't you noticed?

The K.I.S.S principle works in medicine just as it does in many other areas of life. Complexity doesn't always solve problems.



Herbs are the basis of many drugs used by the pharmaceutical industry because they are known to treat disease, but because they cannot patent a plant, they must extract components and make drugs out of them, devoid of the rest of the necessary compounds that make it efficacious. They add artificially produced substances that make the body respond negatively to it...side effects are the body's way of saying that it is not accepting of what is being put into it. So what does big pharma do? They will give you other drugs to treat the side effects and then others to treat those side effects and......cher ching! $$$$$....Talk about the billions!?.....Do you see something wrong with this picture?

I like the comment after that incredibly biased and misinformed article you quoted....

"Reader Response (2/14/00)

You, sir, are the quack. How could you even think of saying, "With safe and effective medicines available, treatment with herbs rarely makes sense."? The correct statement would be: "With all those dangerous drugs available, with all those terrible side effects, treatment with herbs is the only choice." All pharmaceuticals are toxic to the human body. Over 150,000 hospital patients die every year from taking the prescribed dosage of a drug prescribed to them by their doctor. Drugs have their place—in emergencies only—or when a condition has become so bad that the patient is willing to deal with the side effects in order to treat the main problem. Modern "medicine" is more of a scam than herbal medicine could ever be. If people with health problems would stay away from drug stores and spend more time in health food stores, people would live longer, stay healthier, and have a better quality of life. Talk to the men who take blood pressure "medicine" and can no longer get an erection. Talk to the relatives of the men who died from taking viagra. Drugs only address the symptoms, herbs address the cause. Drugs simply mask the symptoms, herbs assist in the healing.


I have a B.S. in education from Indiana State University, have been studying natural medicine for 17 years, and have been working as a health food store manager and nutritional consultant for 7 years. My disdain for pharmaceutical industry is the result of hearing the horror stories of my customers about the side effects of the drugs they have used. Many of the herb shop customers of today are people who have had bad experiences with prescription drugs and/or doctors who won't listen to or work with them. In a way i am thankful for the drug industry, because they drive many people into health food stores. I don't mean to imply that there is no place for drugs, because there definitely is a place for them. However drugs should be the last resort"

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed here.

You should have read the upper part of that page, it would have been more useful (and accurate) for us.

"In the United States, herbs intended for preventive or therapeutic use would be regulated as drugs under federal laws. To evade the law, these products are marketed as "foods" or "dietary supplements" without health claims on their labels. Since these are not regulated as drugs, no legal standards exist for their processing, harvesting, or packaging. In many cases, particularly for products with expensive raw ingredients, contents and potency are not accurately disclosed on the label. Many products marked as herbs contain no useful ingredients, and some even lack the principal ingredient for which people buy them. Surveys have found have found that the ingredients and doses of several products varied considerably from brand to brand.

A Good Housekeeping Institute analysis of six widely available St. John's wort supplement capsules and four liquid extracts revealed a lack of consistency of the suspected active ingredients, hypericin and pseudohypericin. The study found:

• A 17-fold difference between the capsules containing the smallest amount of hypericin and those containing the largest amount, based on manufacturer's maximum recommended dosage.
• A 13-fold difference in pseudohypericin in the capsules.
• A 7-to-8-fold differential from the highest to the lowest levels of liquid extracts [1].

.....

• In 2010, ConsumerLab told me that nearly half of the herbal products they had tested for quality had failed their evaluations. The reason for failure included too little or too little of the main ingredient, potentially dangerous or illegal ingredients, contamination with heavy metals, "spiking" with unexpected ingredients, and misleading or incomplete product information.
• In 2013, Canadian researchers used DNA barcoding (a type of genetic "fingerprinting") to test 44 products from 12 companies and found that 59% of the products contained ingredients not listed on the label, 30 of the 44 products had ingredient substitutions, and some contained contaminants that posed health risks to users [6]."

This is why regulation and proper testing are necessary. And this is why people making all these claims of the type you have been making are pushing unsubstantiated opinions about herbal "cures." People pushing herbal cures need to demonstrate the veracity of their claims, as is required of those in the medical/pharmacological field.

P.S. As I've pointed out to you several times now, scientists isolate the bio active ingredients found in plants because said ingredients work more effectively that way, are more potent that way, and can be more easily measured and controlled that way. In other words, it's safer and more efficient.

The reason you gave about not be able to patent plants is a fabrication. You can actually patent plants if you want, within certain guidelines:
General Information About 35 U.S.C. 161 Plant Patents

 

[SkepticThinker]

Scoff all you want, but there’s simply too many incidents! The people involved are not all suckers!

You should go see Penn & Teller's Vegas show. Right before your eyes they debunk stuff like cold readings and show you how deceptive the people who take money for them really are. They're not talking to your dead loved ones, rather they're playing you and picking up the cues you provide for them in your responses and your body language. It's actually quite fascinating.

 

[ecco]

Cold reading - Wikipedia
Cold reading is a set of techniques used by mentalists, psychics, fortune-tellers, mediums, illusionists (readers), and scam artists to imply that the reader knows much more about the person than the reader actually does.[1] Without prior knowledge, a practiced cold-reader can quickly obtain a great deal of information by analyzing the person's body language, age, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, race or ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. Cold readings commonly employ high-probability guesses, quickly picking up on signals as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, then emphasizing and reinforcing chance connections and quickly moving on from missed guesses. Psychologists believe that this appears to work because of the Forer effect and due to confirmation biases within people.

Scoff all you want, but there’s simply too many incidents! The people involved are not all suckers!

Did you read the above? Do you remember Peter Popoff? James Randi proved he was a complete fraud. Randi also has a long standing "reward" of $1,000,000 to anyone who can prove any paranormal abilities.

Twenty years and going. No one has taken the prize. No one.


In addition to my comment regarding suckers I also mentioned fear, desperation, hope, etc for reasons people want to believe. Wouldn't you want to talk to a long lost departed? Most people would. Wishing doesn't make it real.

Wouldn't it be great to talk to Washington or Jefferson or Hancock and find out what they were really thinking?

 

[ecco]

double post

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Scoff all you want, but there’s simply too many incidents! The people involved are not all suckers!

Pick up a book on mentalism and start reading. You will learn very quickly just how much of a sucker we human beings.

https://www.amazon.com/Mentalism-Introductory-Mentalists-Hypnosis-Telepathy/dp/1515390616

 

[Subduction Zone]

double post

There is a delete option here. How do I know? I too have double posted a time or two (or perhaps more).

EDIT: Next to the edit "button" there is a button that says delete. It asks for reason for deletion but it does not appear to be required.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

You should go see Penn & Teller's Vegas show. Right before your eyes they debunk stuff like cold readings and show you how deceptive the people who take money for them really are. They're not talking to your dead loved ones, rather they're playing you and picking up the cues you provide for them in your responses and your body language. It's actually quite fascinating.

Penn & Teller are huge fans of Houdini which explains their willingness to show how magic tricks are done but to also debunk mystics, mediums, and the like. Houdini did those very things during his life. In fact, before Houdini died he gave a list of words to his wife. He told her that if any medium were to contact him in the afterlife that he would relay those words through the medium so that his wife would know it was him. No medium has ever uttered those words, even though there is an annual séance where supposedly real mediums attend. Penn & Teller traditionally attend those séances as well with the family secret being passed down from Houdini's wife to their descendants.

I had a Houdini magic book as a young lad, and this picture has always stuck with me:

Back in the day there were spiritualists or mediums that claimed they could talk to spirits and make them ring a bell under the table. Just so the paying customer didn't feel like they were being cheated they were encouraged to put their feet on top of the medium's shoes to verify that they weren't ringing the bell with their feet. Of course, that was part of the trick. All they did was wear a stiff shoe and slip their foot out.

Turns out, humans are easy to fool if you know what you are doing.

 

[ecco]

Years ago I also picked up a little book on Houdini. One of the things that really struck me, and that I remember to this day:

Houdini did a trick where he put thread and sewing needles into his mouth and then pulled out the thread with the threaded needles. Some people understood this was a magic trick. Others believed he was so mystical that he could really thread the needles in his mouth - even after being told that anyone could buy the trick in the magic store across the street.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Twenty years and going. No one has taken the prize. No one.

No, there is no prize anymore.

Yes, it would be awesome to talk to them! (I hope to, in the future.)

I know it’s what people who've lost loved ones, want to believe, and fraudulent humans play on those hopes.

But there were no humans pulling tricks here (nor anyone "missing" or "lonely for" Lincoln):

Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia

There are many other examples, of respected people who've seen apparitions of those with whom they share no emotional attachment.

As JW’s, we believe as you do....really, your POV agrees with the Bible: the dead are dead, and ‘know nothing.’ — Ecclesiastes 9:5; see Psalms 146:3-4; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Genesis 3:19.

But there’s also a fraudulent spirit that promotes the view that the dead are somehow alive, in some undetectable realm.

Most have no idea, the craftiness he utilizes in misleading humans! Anything he can do to keep people from searching for Jehovah God, and from developing an interest in what the Scriptures really teach... unless it's false teachings, including an immediate afterlife (before the Resurrection).

Almost every religion has beliefs supporting the view that death is simply a gateway to another life. But that's the Devils influence... he is fostering the viewpoint, of what was actually his lie to Eve: "You positively will not die"!

One other thing: he is also selective about whom he tries to influence with a belief of life after death. Take people like you and the other atheists here on this forum: why would he reveal himself in some supernatural way to you or them (or Randi)? It might motivate you all to honestly begin searching for God. That's the last thing he wants! He's happy with what you all believe...or lack of.
And the "fraudulent" mediums (of which I admit there are many), suit his purpose, too. -- Revelation 12:9b.

 

[ecco]

But there’s also a fraudulent spirit that promotes the view that the dead are somehow alive, in some undetectable realm.

Most have no idea, the craftiness he utilizes in misleading humans! Anything he can do to keep people from searching for Jehovah God, and from developing an interest in what the Scriptures really teach... unless it's false teachings, including an immediate afterlife (before the Resurrection). Almost every religion has beliefs supporting the view that death is simply a gateway to another life. But that's the Devils influence... he is fostering the viewpoint, of what was actually his lie to Eve: "You positively will not die"!

Let's see if I understand this. Satan wants people to believe their departed loved ones are in heaven to dissuade people from finding the True Religion where no one has gone to heaven, yet. So, when Satan lied to Eve, he knew that someday JW would come into existence.

One other thing: he is also selective about whom he tries to influence with a belief of life after death. Take people like you and the other atheists here on this forum: why would he reveal himself in some supernatural way to you or them (or Randi)? It might motivate you all to honestly begin searching for God. That's the last thing he wants!

How do you know these things about Satan? Did JW God impart that knowledge to JW Leaders who, in turn, imparted that knowledge to you?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Let's see if I understand this. Satan wants people to believe their departed loved ones are in heaven to dissuade people from finding the True Religion where no one has gone to heaven, yet. So, when Satan lied to Eve, he knew that someday JW would come into existence.








How do you know these things about Satan? Did JW God impart that knowledge to JW Leaders who, in turn, imparted that knowledge to you?

No, apparently you don't get it. I was wanting to show you that we and the Bible share common ground with you about the condition of the dead...but your reply drips with disdain. Why did you exclude those Scriptures in your response?

Here are two more, to think on: 2 Corinthians 11:14-15.... 'Satan transforms into an angel of light.' (He can do seemingly good things, to mislead.)

Deuteronomy 18:10-12....(Why does the Bible link "inquiring of the dead" with 'fortunetellers, sorcery and magic', occult themes?)

 

[dfnj]

From the other thread......scripture included. As this is quite long...I'll split it up.
Off to a good start.

Here's how they are perfectly compatible. An omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil evidence. An omnipotent God could have created the Universe just moments ago with all your fake memories intact and this post is the first real thing you've ever experienced. Science always presumes God is bounded by the laws of physics. From a theist point of view. as long as you have faith in an omnipotent God, then who cares about evolution being science fact. It makes absolutely no difference in God's proving ground for faith.

 

[dfnj]

No, apparently you don't get it. I was wanting to show you that we and the Bible share common ground with you about the condition of the dead...but your reply drips with disdain. Why did you exclude those Scriptures in your response?

Here are two more, to think on: 2 Corinthians 11:14-15.... 'Satan transforms into an angel of light.' (He can do seemingly good things, to mislead.)

Deuteronomy 18:10-12....(Why does the Bible link "inquiring of the dead" with 'fortunetellers, sorcery and magic', occult themes?)

I like Slayer's interpretation that Satan is an angel of death:

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I like Slayer's interpretation that Satan is an angel of death:

Check out Hebrews 2:14b...(Sadly, many say "God took my loved one", when the Bible says Satan has the power of death.)

 

[dfnj]

Check out Hebrews 2:14b...(Sadly, many say "God took my loved one", when the Bible says Satan has the power of death.)

Do you really think God did not know exactly what he was doing when he created Satan. Of course He knew. Same thing with Eve. Do you honestly think God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with naked woman prancing about? Of course He knew.

I'm not afraid of Satan. People only take away from you what you let them. So don't let them!

I'm more afraid of the theocracy taking over the government as described by Bill Cooper in this video (3:30 mark onward):

 

[ecco]

Let's see if I understand this. Satan wants people to believe their departed loved ones are in heaven to dissuade people from finding the True Religion where no one has gone to heaven, yet. So, when Satan lied to Eve, he knew that someday JW would come into existence.

No, apparently you don't get it. I was wanting to show you that we and the Bible share common ground with you about the condition of the dead...but your reply drips with disdain.

• Most Christians, reading the same bible as you, do believe in a heaven.
• JW believes in a heaven, just not as soon.
• I do not believe in a heaven.

So, no, no shared common ground.

Why did you exclude those Scriptures in your response?

Here are two more, to think on: 2 Corinthians 11:14-15.... 'Satan transforms into an angel of light.' (He can do seemingly good things, to mislead.)

I don't consider the bible to be a reliable source.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12....(Why does the Bible link "inquiring of the dead" with 'fortunetellers, sorcery and magic', occult themes?)

Because bible writers were a superstitious bunch. Just as bible believers are.

 

[ecco]

Here's how they are perfectly compatible. An omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil evidence. An omnipotent God could have created the Universe just moments ago with all your fake memories intact and this post is the first real thing you've ever experienced.

AKA Last Thursdayism.

Science always presumes God is bounded by the laws of physics.

No. The only presumption science makes about gods is that gods do not exist.



If science was to take gods into consideration then Last Thursdayism is just as much of a real position as any other religious position.

 

[Subduction Zone]

AKA Last Thursdayism.

A very useful belief at times, especially when one has a debt that is more than a week old.

No. The only presumption science makes about gods is that gods do not exist.

I would say that it presumes no interference from gods since no evidence for such interference has ever been shown to exist. One could say science gives no support for any gods. But then science neither tries to prove or disprove gods. Certain god claims have been disproved. We know that the Sun is not pulled across the sky by a team of horses pulled in a chariot since we can observe the Sun directly these days. And we know that life evolved and was not created because the evidence so clearly supports evolution. One would have have the lying god, the one that planted the false evidence of Last Thursdayism to believe in creationism. Which would mean that in reality I don't owe Mark $20.00

If science was to take gods into consideration then Last Thursdayism is just as much of a real position as any other religious position.

Yep, writing off that debt and accepting creationism! Hmm . . . I wonder if that is repeatable behavior on my part. This could be a highly profitable belief. I always did want a Ferrari.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Penn & Teller are huge fans of Houdini which explains their willingness to show how magic tricks are done but to also debunk mystics, mediums, and the like. Houdini did those very things during his life. In fact, before Houdini died he gave a list of words to his wife. He told her that if any medium were to contact him in the afterlife that he would relay those words through the medium so that his wife would know it was him. No medium has ever uttered those words, even though there is an annual séance where supposedly real mediums attend. Penn & Teller traditionally attend those séances as well with the family secret being passed down from Houdini's wife to their descendants.

I had a Houdini magic book as a young lad, and this picture has always stuck with me:

Back in the day there were spiritualists or mediums that claimed they could talk to spirits and make them ring a bell under the table. Just so the paying customer didn't feel like they were being cheated they were encouraged to put their feet on top of the medium's shoes to verify that they weren't ringing the bell with their feet. Of course, that was part of the trick. All they did was wear a stiff shoe and slip their foot out.

Turns out, humans are easy to fool if you know what you are doing.

I used to do a lot of reading on this kind of stuff because it totally fascinated me. I probably had the same Houdini book.
Before she died, my Nana and I actually made a similar arrangement to the one Houdini and his wife made. Our word was "Wowie Doo-doo." (Something she used to say.) And if it turned out she couldn't convey a message to me in word form, she promised that she would grab me by the collar, like she used to do to us kids on a cold day and tell us to zip our coats up. I figured that would be noticeable.

She's been gone for 7 years now. She hasn't shown up yet to grab my collar, nor did she show up the two times my mother and I visited with a psychic, just for fun. I guess I'll keep waiting.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, there is no prize anymore.

Yes, it would be awesome to talk to them! (I hope to, in the future.)

I know it’s what people who've lost loved ones, want to believe, and fraudulent humans play on those hopes.

But there were no humans pulling tricks here (nor anyone "missing" or "lonely for" Lincoln):

Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia

There are many other examples, of respected people who've seen apparitions of those with whom they share no emotional attachment.

As JW’s, we believe as you do....really, your POV agrees with the Bible: the dead are dead, and ‘know nothing.’ — Ecclesiastes 9:5; see Psalms 146:3-4; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Genesis 3:19.

But there’s also a fraudulent spirit that promotes the view that the dead are somehow alive, in some undetectable realm.

Most have no idea, the craftiness he utilizes in misleading humans! Anything he can do to keep people from searching for Jehovah God, and from developing an interest in what the Scriptures really teach... unless it's false teachings, including an immediate afterlife (before the Resurrection).

Almost every religion has beliefs supporting the view that death is simply a gateway to another life. But that's the Devils influence... he is fostering the viewpoint, of what was actually his lie to Eve: "You positively will not die"!

One other thing: he is also selective about whom he tries to influence with a belief of life after death. Take people like you and the other atheists here on this forum: why would he reveal himself in some supernatural way to you or them (or Randi)? It might motivate you all to honestly begin searching for God. That's the last thing he wants! He's happy with what you all believe...or lack of.
And the "fraudulent" mediums (of which I admit there are many), suit his purpose, too. -- Revelation 12:9b.

Sounds made up.