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Creationism Creates Confusion for Christians

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

Yeshayah 7:14 (Isiaiah 7:14)

Orthodox Jewish Bible

14 Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)

Mattityahu 1:23 (Matthew 1:23)

Orthodox Jewish Bible

23 HINEI, HAALMAH HARAH VYOLEDET BEN VKARAT SHMO IMMANU-EL (Behold, the Virgin will be with child and will bear Son and will call his name Immanu-El

I really don't understand what your issue is with the Isaiah & Matthew passage.

Another little point, what do you think is the reason we die? I will be looking for others' answers as well as yours but on these types of questions I notice some of the more erudite ones here keep their mouths shut because...they believe the Bible is filled with myths but go to church anyway. So they don't want to speak up beyond saying how good they are and that the Bible is filled with myths and people like Moses and David and Jesus did not exist as biblically portrayed.
 
Speak for yourself. :neutral:
Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

I speak from the authority of the Holy Bible.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

I speak from the authority of the Holy Bible.
The Bible is of human construct, thus not perfect.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
From what I understand, ribs have the potential to grow back, but the cover must remain intact. Can a human rib regenerate? - Answers
Since God was the surgeon, He can take what He needed from Adam's rib to form the woman. Just like it is written He used soil or dirt to make Adam's body. Exactly how He did it is certainly not recounted. Moses was not a surgeon, and it does appear fabulous that he wrote that the rib was used, since a human rib has the potential to regenerate.

Regenerate, as in healing a broken rib, is one thing, growing a whole new body from that rib, is unrealistic fantasy...especially a fully grown female.

Yeshayah 7:14 (Isiaiah 7:14)

Orthodox Jewish Bible

14 Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)

Mattityahu 1:23 (Matthew 1:23)

Orthodox Jewish Bible

23 HINEI, HAALMAH HARAH VYOLEDET BEN VKARAT SHMO IMMANU-EL (Behold, the Virgin will be with child and will bear Son and will call his name Immanu-El

I really don't understand what your issue is with the Isaiah & Matthew passage.


What is wrong, you are ignoring the whole sign, Little Nipper.

no one ever explicitly called Jesus, “Immanuel“ in the gospels or any of the epistles.

The sign continued from verse 15 to verse 17, which are related to the war between Ahaz of Judah and the two kings (Pekah of Israel & Rezin of Aram), Isaiah 7:1, and the king of Assyria (Tiglath-Pileser III, 745 - 727 BCE) intervention in the war (2 Kings 15:29, 2 Kings 16:5-9), by attacking Samaria and Damascus.

here are the relevant passages relating to the war:

Isaiah 7:1 Orthodox Jewish Bible
7 And it came to pass in the yamim of Achaz ben Yotam ben Uziyahu, Melech Yehudah, that Retzin Melech Aram (Syria), and Pekach ben Remalyahu Melech Yisroel, went up toward Yerushalayim to war against her, but could not prevail over her.

2 Kings 15:29 Orthodox Jewish Bible
29 In the days of Pekach Melech Yisroel came Tiglat Pileser Melech Ashur (Assyria), and took Iyon, and Abel Beit-Ma’achah, and Yanoach, and Kedesh, and Chatzor, and Gil‘ad, and the Galil, all the Eretz Naphtali, and carried them away into the Golus of Assyria.

2 Kings 16:5-9 Orthodox Jewish Bible

5 Then Retzin Melech Aram (Syria) and Pekach Ben Remalyahu Melech Yisroel came up to Yerushalayim for milchamah; and they besieged Achaz, but could not overcome him.
6 At that time Retzin Melech Aram (Syria) recovered Eilat for Aram, and drove the Yehudim from Eilat; and the Edomim came to Eilat, and dwelt there unto this day.
7 So Achaz sent malachim to Tiglat Pileser Melech Ashur (Assyria), saying, I am thy eved and thy ben (son, vassal); come up, and save me out of the hand of Melech Aram, and out of the hand of Melech Yisroel, which rise up against me.
8 And Achaz took the kesef and zahav that was found in the Beis Hashem, and in the otzerot of the Bais HaMelech, and sent it for a shochad (bribe) to Melech Ashur.
9 And Melech of Ashur (Assyria) paid heed unto him; for Melech Ashur (Assyria) went up against Damascus, and captured it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slaughtered Retzin.

And here is the complete sign of Isaiah 7:

Isaiah 7:14-17 Orthodox Jewish Bible
14 Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us).

15 Curds and honey shall he eat at the time that he knows to refuse the rah, and choose the tov.

16 For before the na’ar (boy) shall understand to refuse the rah, and choose the tov, the adamah (land) will be desolate, of whose two melachim thou art afraid.

17 Hashem shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon the Bais of thy father, yamim such as have not come since the yom when Ephrayim departed from Yehudah [2Kgs 15:29; 16:9]: even Melech Ashur (Assyria).

Isaiah 7:14-17 New Revised Standard Version
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son and shall name him Immanuel. 15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on your ancestral house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah—the king of Assyria.”

The “he” (7:15), “child” or “boy” (7:16)

if you had the complete sign, you would notice that sign was really about the boy being born, but at what age Immanuel would be, when the army of ”the King of Assyria” would attack

You are also ignoring the fact that a similar sign were given in the next chapter, and it is still about the war Judah were have with Israel and Aram, in Isaiah 8:3-4:

Isaiah 8:1-4 New Revised Standard Version
8 Then the Lord said to me, “Take a large tablet and write on it in common characters, ‘Belonging to Maher-shalal-hash-baz,’[a] 2 and have it attested[b] for me by reliable witnesses, the priest Uriah and Zechariah son of Jeberechiah.” 3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz, 4 for before the child knows how to call ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away by the king of Assyria.”


My assumption is that Maher-shalal-hash-baz is another name for Immanuel. It isn't so odd for one person to have 2 or more names. For instance, Simon, then Peter. Or Jacob who is also known as Israel.

Don’t just read 1 verse, read the whole 2 chapters, then you will understand that the sign were about the war, especially WHEN the king of Assyria will intervene, which is the heart of the sign.

Both signs (7:14-17 & 8:3-4) the boy’s birth isn’t as important as when boy the reach a certain age (eg before the boy eat curds & honey (7:15), before boy know how to choose good from evil (7:16), before the boy can call out “mother” & “father“ (8:4), which are connected to Israel and Aram losing the war to the King of Assyria.

Plus, you are also ignoring another fact, that Immanuel is again mentioned in Isaiah 8:8:

Isaiah 8:5-8 New Revised Standard Version
5 The Lord spoke to me again: 6 “Because this people has refused the waters of Shiloah that flow gently and melt in fear before[c] Rezin and the son of Remaliah, 7 therefore the Lord is bringing up against it the mighty flood waters of the River, the king of Assyria and all his glory; it will rise above all its channels and overflow all its banks; 8 it will sweep on into Judah as a flood and, pouring over, will reach up to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

Those are the signs given to Ahaz. It was never about the birth of a messiah.

isaiah even said so much that he and his sons were the signs:

Isaiah 8:18 See, I and the children whom the Lord has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion.
 

Jimmy

Veteran Member
I like the Buddhist teaching that how we got here originally is irrelevant to today's here & now. However, I do have the curiosity as an anthropologist.
Irrelevant? Yes and no imo. Now is the most important time and the only time but it’s also nice to know that I’ll be back here again.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Irrelevant? Yes and no imo. Now is the most important time and the only time but it’s also nice to know that I’ll be back here again.
But knowing the answer affects the price of eggs today how? ;)
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

I speak from the authority of the Holy Bible.
1. Your chosen Intrrpretation has no authority at all.


2. Put to the test, your bible doesn't either
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The Bible in it original tongue is of GOD's design and therefore exists as HE desires it to. Everything GOD does is good.
God command rapists to marry their victims to get away with it.

Is that good? Do you have daughters?

Ciao

- viole
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Ecclesiastes 9:3
(3) This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

I speak from the authority of the Holy Bible.
Meh. The Holy Bible only has authority over those who ascribe to it as an authority. It's just another subjective opinion piece in a pile of others. It's an authority for you and your interpretation of it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I disagree. Many things are of god imo.
If we accept Spinoza's theory, which I do believe is in play, that might well be the case.

BTW, Einstein said he believed in "Spinoza's God".
 
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