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Creationism in schools...

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
What about the kids who don't love it, and question it? They are silenced and told they will go to hell if they believe otherwise. That is why I consider it to be child abuse. I wouldn't put it on the same level as physical abuse, but it is a form of psychological abuse.

I consider it to be a part of religious freedom. Parents should be able to teach their children whatever religious beliefs they see fit, even if we disagree with it. If the children's physical health is threatened then it is a different ball game (e.g. denying medical care because of religious dogmas), but if it is just about teaching them beliefs then that is their right. Don't get me wrong, it is very unfortunate, but part of having freedoms is allowing people to make the wrong choice.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I think the 'banning' of some teaching needs to be considered. OK you may say the teaching of Creationism should not be banned...but where would you draw the line?

What about teaching that the earth is flat?
What about teaching that eugenics is good?
What about teaching that Whites are superior to Blacks?

I don't think it is the government's job to tell parents what they are allowed to teach their children. The government is certainly in charge of what government schools teach, but not what parents teach or what school they send their kids to.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I consider it to be a part of religious freedom. Parents should be able to teach their children whatever religious beliefs they see fit, even if we disagree with it. If the children's physical health is threatened then it is a different ball game (e.g. denying medical care because of religious dogmas), but if it is just about teaching them beliefs then that is their right. Don't get me wrong, it is very unfortunate, but part of having freedoms is allowing people to make the wrong choice.

Yes, parents, not schools.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
All emphases mine...
School That Gave Controversial Creationist Quiz Is Closing
2013/08/29

Blue Ridge Christian Academy, the school that made headlines after one of its creationist “science” quizzes was posted online, is officially closing down, according to the Travelers Rest Tribune.

The private, religious South Carolina school received attention in April when one of its science quizzes was posted on Reddit and subsequently went viral....

While the school received an onslaught of criticism for the quiz, administrators also thought the attention could be a blessing in disguise. After the quiz was posted online, the financially troubled school began receiving monetary donations from around the world.

By late May the school had received about $15,000 from more than 70 countries. Still, the school needed $200,000 in order to operate during the 2013–2014 school year, according to the Travelers Rest Tribune.

“We’re trying to make private Christian education readily available to students who normally couldn’t afford that,” Buchanan told HuffPost several months ago. “[God] is going to meet all our needs, what that will look like we don’t know, but he is good.”


http://www.trtribune.com/index.php/...istian-academy-facility-to-be-sold-at-auction

October 27, 2014
LANDRUM, S.C. – The former home of Blue Ridge Christian Academy is set to be auctioned off on Monday, Nov. 3 at 2 p.m..

The private school, which in May 2013 made national news over a fourth-grade science quiz, suffered financial difficulties and did not open for the 2013-14 school year.

Located at the foot of Glassy Mountain on Highway 101, the facility includes 30 acres, three education/administration buildings totaling 25,000 square feet, and an 11,000-square-foot gymnasium, according to National Auction Group, the Alabama-based auction company advertising the sale.

The property is being sold furnished with all equipment, according to the auction flier.



This is where we all say ThankYa Jesus - Amen

 

ecco

Veteran Member
I don't think it is the government's job to tell parents what they are allowed to teach their children. The government is certainly in charge of what government schools teach, but not what parents teach or what school they send their kids to.
As long as the schools are not being supported by taxpayer dollars, either directly or indirectly by vouchers.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
The class this quiz showed up in was a "science" class. If this is science then I am a talented, keyboard-typing lemur.

Would it be "okay", do you think, if a class touted as a "math" class within a private school instead taught rote memorization of all the jokes in Spongebob Season 1? That's not far off from how bad this is.

Since it is a private school, you may be thinking it is the parents' prerogative whether or not they send their kids there... but being a parent myself, and seeing the level of attentiveness that other parents pay to their kids academic lives (and seeing how often parents don't even understand the things their kids are being taught themselves) do you really think it is 100% responsible to just "teach whatever" and leave it up to the parents to react to their kids' school curriculum appropriately? Highly unrealistic.

The operative word here is "PRIVATE." Your points are very well made for public schools.

But private schools are chosen by parents for specific reasons, and the rest of us have no authority, or right, to determine what is taught there.

As a teacher I WILL go so far as to say that I think that all students must show that they understand and have learned certain things before they can get a 'legal' diploma that is equivalent to a public high school diploma, much the way that college diplomas mean a LOT more from accredited institutions than when they come from diploma mills or other unaccredited schools. Employers look at that sort of thing.

However, that's all we can, or SHOULD, do about that.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Supposedly, you wish to avoid such anarchy in private schools to avoid monopoly over your children's knowledge and views of the world. In the worst case, the plan is to avoid someone imposing falsehoods on your children's minds.

However, Ken Ham's creationism has nothing to do with science so teaching it in science class is giving children terrible misinformation and is not education but brain washing. It is exactly the kind of thing people typically wish to avoid by advocating private schools except it's not just a far-fetched possibility of what might go wrong if the goverment starts controling education, but the real deal.

Not your problem.
Not my problem.

If it is seen as a problem by the parents, then they need to put their kids in a different school.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
It should be banned, because we know evolution is a scientific fact. We don't allow teachers to teach conspiracy theories about the moon landing, or teach that the Holocaust never occurred.

Who says 'we' don't?

Who is "we?"

Why should we allow them to teach this nonsense? People can believe whatever craziness they want, but they shouldn't be allowed to force it upon children as if it were a fact, and threaten the children with hell if they question it. That is child abuse, plain and simple.

So don't teach your children those things.
I didn't teach my children those things, and my children aren't going to teach THEIR kids those things.

But we have no right whatsoever to dictate to anybody else what THEIR kids get taught. ...and you should be glad for that. After all, just because you think you have the right, authority and moral high ground to dictate to someone else how they must educate their children, it doesn't necessarily hold true that you always will. If you can dictate to others now, then they, when they get the 'majority,' or the power, will dictate to you.

And what will you be able to say to them when they do?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I think the 'banning' of some teaching needs to be considered. OK you may say the teaching of Creationism should not be banned...but where would you draw the line?

What about teaching that the earth is flat?
What about teaching that eugenics is good?
What about teaching that Whites are superior to Blacks?

I draw no lines. Private schools are private for a reason.

Now if you folks are talking about PUBLIC schools, you'd get an entirely different reaction from me.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
As a teacher I WILL go so far as to say that I think that all students must show that they understand and have learned certain things before they can get a 'legal' diploma that is equivalent to a public high school diploma, much the way that college diplomas mean a LOT more from accredited institutions than when they come from diploma mills or other unaccredited schools. Employers look at that sort of thing.

However, that's all we can, or SHOULD, do about that.
I'm wondering how that would work. Should graduates of private schools have to pass proficiency tests before getting a diploma? Or should there be a two-tiered system where students can get either the 'official, state-accredited high school diploma" or the "unofficial, non-accredited high school diploma"?
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering how that would work. Should graduates of private schools have to pass proficiency tests before getting a diploma? Or should there be a two-tiered system where students can get either the 'official, state-accredited high school diploma" or the "unofficial, non-accredited high school diploma"?

those who would graduate from high school (or college), public or private, should be required to demonstrate their academic understanding. That doesn't necessarily have to be a 'proficiency test."

I have more than one degree. One required a 'senior project,' for my BA, I had to pass state exams as well as school exams for my teaching credential, and write a thesis for my MA. If I ever decide to get my doctorate, I'll need to write that dissertation. I've taken all the classes and done all the work, but I need to demonstrate to OTHERS that I have done this.

Not every student 'tests well,' but every student can demonstrate his or her understanding in some way that is acceptable to those who are 'in charge.'

It is not unreasonable to say to those who want to put their kids in private schools: look, you do what you want; these schools teach your values and your beliefs and your culture, and that's great. However, if you want your kids to get jobs or get admitted to college or do anything but say 'do you want fries with that?" ...

...oh, wait. I think most fast food places require high school diplomas...

Then they have to be able to demonstrate that they know math, science as everybody ELSE accepts it as well as the way you do, grammar, writing skills...stuff like that. Then, when your kids can do that, they get the official 'you passed...!!!" certificate and off they go.

Some colleges already require something like that from home schooled kids. Certainly you are familiar with the concept of civil service exams.

Who cares where you learn the stuff, or what ELSE you learn along with 'the stuff,' as long as you learn 'the stuff?"

And THAT is up to the parents. Or, if the parents fall down on the job, the kids when they are old enough to repair their deficiencies.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering how that would work. Should graduates of private schools have to pass proficiency tests before getting a diploma? Or should there be a two-tiered system where students can get either the 'official, state-accredited high school diploma" or the "unofficial, non-accredited high school diploma"?

They can always take the GED. If memory serves, I was friends with some home schooled kids (many years ago) and they took regular tests to demonstrate that they were learning the same things their public school peers were learning, and I think this served as accreditation. There would seem to be several routes that they could take outside of official accreditation. However, a non-accredited school would be a hard sell, especially if they are asking for tuition.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
They can always take the GED. If memory serves, I was friends with some home schooled kids (many years ago) and they took regular tests to demonstrate that they were learning the same things their public school peers were learning, and I think this served as accreditation. There would seem to be several routes that they could take outside of official accreditation. However, a non-accredited school would be a hard sell, especially if they are asking for tuition.

I think the issue here is about the teacher and what they teach.
In my country, if a science test like that was brought to the attention of an Administrative Court, that science teacher would automatically lose their license to teach science in any school, public or private.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
There is something else on their agenda: they are increasingly going after Christians and Christian institutions that teach God’s Word beginning in Genesis.
They should be teaching their children that the Bible is fiction.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I think the issue here is about the teacher and what they teach.
In my country, if a science test like that was brought to the attention of an Administrative Court, that science teacher would automatically lose their license to teach science in any school, public or private.

America is a bit different. The country was founded in part by people who fled other countries because of religious persecution. From the very start there was a strong held belief in religious freedoms and personal liberties. This is why teachers at private religious schools can teach whatever they want without the government taking away their jobs. In fact, I don't even think teachers at private schools are required by law to have a teaching certificate.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
those who would graduate from high school (or college), public or private, should be required to demonstrate their academic understanding. That doesn't necessarily have to be a 'proficiency test."
So exactly how would they demonstrate their proficiency?

It is not unreasonable to say to those who want to put their kids in private schools: look, you do what you want; these schools teach your values and your beliefs and your culture, and that's great. However, if you want your kids to get jobs or get admitted to college or do anything but say 'do you want fries with that?" ...

...oh, wait. I think most fast food places require high school diplomas...

Then they have to be able to demonstrate that they know math, science as everybody ELSE accepts it as well as the way you do, grammar, writing skills...stuff like that. Then, when your kids can do that, they get the official 'you passed...!!!" certificate and off they go.
And that's the question.....how do we determine that kids from private schools like the one in the OP have that proficiency? Or do we just give them an official high school diploma, even though their education was nowhere near what that usually entails?

Some colleges already require something like that from home schooled kids. Certainly you are familiar with the concept of civil service exams.
And that actually happens a lot....a kid from some kooky school, or one who's been poorly home schooled, goes to college, takes a couple of placement tests, and bombs. Typically the college has them take a whole bunch of remedial classes.

And I also suppose that such kids will do quite poorly on the SAT and ACT as well, which would hamper their ability to even get into college.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
They can always take the GED.
Home schooled kids, yes. But kids from private schools like the one in the OP don't need to since they would already have a genuine high school diploma.

If memory serves, I was friends with some home schooled kids (many years ago) and they took regular tests to demonstrate that they were learning the same things their public school peers were learning, and I think this served as accreditation. There would seem to be several routes that they could take outside of official accreditation. However, a non-accredited school would be a hard sell, especially if they are asking for tuition.
I think that sort of regular check-in varies by states, and many states don't require such a thing at all.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
So exactly how would they demonstrate their proficiency?

Is there some reason why, since you obviously read my post (given that you quoted the parts you wanted to address) you elided and utterly ignored the part of it that answers the above question?

Here. let me remind you.


I have more than one degree. One required a 'senior project,' for my BA, I had to pass state exams as well as school exams for my teaching credential, and write a thesis for my MA. If I ever decide to get my doctorate, I'll need to write that dissertation. I've taken all the classes and done all the work, but I need to demonstrate to OTHERS that I have done this.

Not every student 'tests well,' but every student can demonstrate his or her understanding in some way that is acceptable to those who are 'in charge.'

You will note that I gave several examples of how students can demonstrate proficiency. These examples are by no means all the options available. papers, projects, research projects, ...lots of options.

And that's the question.....how do we determine that kids from private schools like the one in the OP have that proficiency? Or do we just give them an official high school diploma, even though their education was nowhere near what that usually entails?

I believe I addressed that in the post to which this is an answer. Tell me; do you actually read the posts you want to respond to, or do you write your own script and follow that?


And that actually happens a lot....a kid from some kooky school, or one who's been poorly home schooled, goes to college, takes a couple of placement tests, and bombs. Typically the college has them take a whole bunch of remedial classes.

And that is just plain inaccurate. Colleges are considerably harder on homeschoolers attempting to get in than they are on more traditionally educated students. Even those colleges who are 'test free...' that is, they don't require admission tests for kids with high school diplomas, insist that homeschoolers take those tests.

................and homeschoolers do very well in college, thank you very much. Try ditching your preconceptions and looking at the actual statistics.

I LOVED to see homeschooled students in my "English 99" classes, though I seldom had them, and generally had to 'kick them upstairs" to English 101 before the first month was out. ALL my students came from the local high school. There are a lot of homeschoolers around here, and very few of them attend the local JC. Almost all of 'em were headed to a University of California campus, or Harvard, or.....

I'm not worried about the level of education that homeschooled kids get. I worry a LOT more about the education that the public high school kids don't get.

And I also suppose that such kids will do quite poorly on the SAT and ACT as well, which would hamper their ability to even get into college.

They don't, you know. Homeschooled kids actually do a bit better on SAT and ACT exams than traditionally schooled students. Oh....and it turns out that homeschooled students do BETTER in college than traditionally educated students. That may be because homeschooled students have to jump through more hoops to get into college, and so already have more experience with the sort of academia that they will face there.

In fact, in my experience (and I have a fair amount of it), homeschooled students are more comfortable in a college/university environment. It more closely matches what they are used to, in terms of choice, self discipline, etc., Kids out of high school have NO clue just how different college is.

Of course, all this depends on the parents and the students, but then...what doesn't, in terms of education?
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Is there some reason why, since you obviously read my post (given that you quoted the parts you wanted to address) you elided and utterly ignored the part of it that answers the above question?

Here. let me remind you.
I wasn't aware you were saying that students from private schools should have to write a thesis (or some equivalent) to demonstrate proficiency and establish that they received sufficient education.

And that is just plain inaccurate. Colleges are considerably harder on homeschoolers attempting to get in than they are on more traditionally educated students. Even those colleges who are 'test free...' that is, they don't require admission tests for kids with high school diplomas, insist that homeschoolers take those tests.

................and homeschoolers do very well in college, thank you very much. Try ditching your preconceptions and looking at the actual statistics.

I LOVED to see homeschooled students in my "English 99" classes, though I seldom had them, and generally had to 'kick them upstairs" to English 101 before the first month was out. ALL my students came from the local high school. There are a lot of homeschoolers around here, and very few of them attend the local JC. Almost all of 'em were headed to a University of California campus, or Harvard, or.....

I'm not worried about the level of education that homeschooled kids get. I worry a LOT more about the education that the public high school kids don't get.

They don't, you know. Homeschooled kids actually do a bit better on SAT and ACT exams than traditionally schooled students. Oh....and it turns out that homeschooled students do BETTER in college than traditionally educated students. That may be because homeschooled students have to jump through more hoops to get into college, and so already have more experience with the sort of academia that they will face there.

In fact, in my experience (and I have a fair amount of it), homeschooled students are more comfortable in a college/university environment. It more closely matches what they are used to, in terms of choice, self discipline, etc., Kids out of high school have NO clue just how different college is.

Of course, all this depends on the parents and the students, but then...what doesn't, in terms of education?
Please note that I specifically said "poorly home schooled students".
 
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