Creationism in schools...

[Thermos aquaticus]

Please note that I specifically said "poorly home schooled students".

Just to be fair, I have met some extremely well educated home schoolers. In one case, her parents noticed right away that she was pretty bright and wasn't being challenged by the pubic school system. Her parents were also very well educated, so they decided to home school her. I met her in her senior year, and by my estimation she was close to a college junior in proficiency. Home schooling can work brilliantly, especially for the right kids in the right family. You still have to worry a bit about social skills, but that is another matter.

 

[John53]

Just to be fair, I have met some extremely well educated home schoolers. In one case, her parents noticed right away that she was pretty bright and wasn't being challenged by the pubic school system. Her parents were also very well educated, so they decided to home school her. I met her in her senior year, and by my estimation she was close to a college junior in proficiency. Home schooling can work brilliantly, especially for the right kids in the right family. You still have to worry a bit about social skills, but that is another matter.

It has been a long time since I was at school but the way I remember it, the school system here in Australia failed both the gifted and struggling students. It appeared to be designed for the average student and was incapable of helping students at opposite ends of the scale. Hopefully things have changed.

 

[dianaiad]

I wasn't aware you were saying that students from private schools should have to write a thesis (or some equivalent) to demonstrate proficiency and establish that they received sufficient education.

OK....that was, however, rather the point, that home schoolers and private school students should demonstrate proficiency in certain basic and important areas in order to get a diploma. So should...and this is more to the point, come to think of it, should publicly educated students.

Please note that I specifically said "poorly home schooled students".

Poorly educated students are all in the same boat, whether they come from public schools, private schools or home schools. As it happens, it looks as if there are fewer poorly educated home schooled kids, per capita, than come from public education.

As you can probably guess, I'm a home school advocate. However, I'm also aware that home schooling is HARD, not for everybody, and parents who choose this option need all the help and qualified professional advice they can get. It's one of the reasons I went after my teaching credential.

...........and THAT cemented my opinion of public education vs. homeschooling rather completely.

 

[dianaiad]

Just to be fair, I have met some extremely well educated home schoolers. In one case, her parents noticed right away that she was pretty bright and wasn't being challenged by the pubic school system. Her parents were also very well educated, so they decided to home school her. I met her in her senior year, and by my estimation she was close to a college junior in proficiency. Home schooling can work brilliantly, especially for the right kids in the right family. You still have to worry a bit about social skills, but that is another matter.

Quite another matter, especially given the 'social skills' that teenagers acquire in public high schools. It was brutal fifty odd years ago when I was in high school, and today?

The 'social skills' acquired in public schools today include knowing which colors NOT to wear so that you won't get beaten up by whatever gang is objecting to the wearing of them. It includes intensive courses in gossip, bullying, 'clique 101' and other important life skills.

Properly homeschooled kids get to choose the social interaction that will uplift and encourage them, instead of enforcing self defense moves. Home schooled kids can go volunteer in places where they meet REAL people with real problems, not deal with the cheerleader princess who can hound the current target to suicide. Home school kids can go DO things that publicly educated kids can't do....and those things don't even have to cost any money.

no, you can't hand the kid a packet of lessons and say 'go do these...' and then forget about it. Homeschooling is WORK.

But done right? Wonderful.

 

[Audie]

It has been a long time since I was at school but the way I remember it, the school system here in Australia failed both the gifted and struggling students. It appeared to be designed for the average student and was incapable of helping students at opposite ends of the scale. Hopefully things have changed.

In American public school, I got the impression it was for kids at about
the 30th percentile. I mostly just read a book on my lap.

 

[Audie]

The 'social skills' acquired in public schools today include knowing which colors NOT to wear so that you won't get beaten up by whatever gang is objecting to the wearing of them. It includes intensive courses in gossip, bullying, 'clique 101' and other important life skills.
.

As an immigrant kid who talked funny and wore thick glasses, it was quite
a thing to be thrown into middle school here. Learn or die.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The 'social skills' acquired in public schools today include knowing which colors NOT to wear so that you won't get beaten up by whatever gang is objecting to the wearing of them. It includes intensive courses in gossip, bullying, 'clique 101' and other important life skills.

I doubt that is the norm across the entire nation, although bullying and cliques seem to be pervasive through both space and time.

Properly homeschooled kids get to choose the social interaction that will uplift and encourage them, instead of enforcing self defense moves. Home schooled kids can go volunteer in places where they meet REAL people with real problems, not deal with the cheerleader princess who can hound the current target to suicide. Home school kids can go DO things that publicly educated kids can't do....and those things don't even have to cost any money.

At the same time, the real world can be a bit like public schools. I'm not saying that kids should be bullied, but there is something to be said about learning how to overcome difficult social situations.

 

[Audie]

I doubt that is the norm across the entire nation, although bullying and cliques seem to be pervasive through both space and time.



At the same time, the real world can be a bit like public schools. I'm not saying that kids should be bullied, but there is something to be said about learning how to overcome difficult social situations.

It can be harsh, but it is approved by none other than Dr Darwin himself.

 

[Jose Fly]

Just to be fair, I have met some extremely well educated home schoolers. In one case, her parents noticed right away that she was pretty bright and wasn't being challenged by the pubic school system. Her parents were also very well educated, so they decided to home school her. I met her in her senior year, and by my estimation she was close to a college junior in proficiency. Home schooling can work brilliantly, especially for the right kids in the right family. You still have to worry a bit about social skills, but that is another matter.

I have as well and never suggested otherwise.

 

[dianaiad]

As an immigrant kid who talked funny and wore thick glasses, it was quite
a thing to be thrown into middle school here. Learn or die.

Sometimes quite literally.

I'm not really in favor of that, y'know?

 

[Audie]

Sometimes quite literally.

I'm not really in favor of that, y'know?

It was not fun for me. Adolescent girls can be really vicious.

 

[dianaiad]

I doubt that is the norm across the entire nation, although bullying and cliques seem to be pervasive through both space and time.

It's the norm. Really. It is. Some schools are better than others, of course, and some neighborhoods have different cultures. Schools that are more homogeneous tend to be less volatile than the larger urban and suburban 'diverse' schools, but the more homogeneous schools (and it doesn't matter WHAT the main culture or group is) tend to be far less accepting of the 'outsider.'

Mainly, I believe, it's a matter of the size of the cliques; small schools have fewer of them; perhaps just the one that comprises the majority of the student body, and larger schools have more.

I've been around awhile. Been teaching awhile, in both very big schools and very small ones.

I like homeschool. A lot. As I have mentioned, it's not for everybody, but for those who are 'outliers?' Works great.

At the same time, the real world can be a bit like public schools. I'm not saying that kids should be bullied, but there is something to be said about learning how to overcome difficult social situations.

You know something?

I've been a realtor, a store manager, sold vacuum cleaners, been a waitress, disarmed land mines (really, I did....long story) and have had to deal with all sorts of stuff. Sexual harassment, Gender discrimination, even threats to my safety (ever try to show a house where you had to lock up the rottweiler first?) and the IRS.

NOTHING came close to the sort of experiences my high school students dealt with every day. I've never been threatened, as an adult, with a gang member pulling a knife on me because I was wearing the wrong color scarf. I've never been beaten up because I DIDN'T cheat on a test. I've never had any of those sorts of experiences, but my daughter did. As a direct result she left high school and finished her work as a home school pupil. That was my first experience with home school and the differences between the two experiences. My daughter and I remember those two years with a great deal of fondness, AND laughter...it was amazing.

Oh, and she didn't have any problems at all either getting into, or doing the work of, college.

Oh, and she doesn't have any problems at all dealing with adult social situations.

 

[dianaiad]

It was not fun for me. Adolescent girls can be really vicious.

yeah. I didn't like high school either. Perhaps that (and my later experience AS a high school teacher) really color my view on this, but 'brutal' is still a really appropriate word.

 

[Audie]

yeah. I didn't like high school either. Perhaps that (and my later experience AS a high school teacher) really color my view on this, but 'brutal' is still a really appropriate word.

One way I got myself in trouble was, in Hong Kong I was way ahead of
where same age kids are here, and, at first I didnt know to hide it.

No way on earth I'd be willing to try to be a teacher.

 

[dianaiad]

One way I got myself in trouble was, in Hong Kong I was way ahead of
where same age kids are here, and, at first I didnt know to hide it.

No way on earth I'd be willing to try to be a teacher.

I love being a teacher.

.........but not in a formal classroom. I like teaching one on one, or in very small groups (two or three at most). It's an entirely different experience.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

It's the norm. Really. It is. Some schools are better than others, of course, and some neighborhoods have different cultures. Schools that are more homogeneous tend to be less volatile than the larger urban and suburban 'diverse' schools, but the more homogeneous schools (and it doesn't matter WHAT the main culture or group is) tend to be far less accepting of the 'outsider.'

Every school has gangs that threaten the lives of other students if they wear the wrong colors? Seriously?

You know something?

I've been a realtor, a store manager, sold vacuum cleaners, been a waitress, disarmed land mines (really, I did....long story) and have had to deal with all sorts of stuff. Sexual harassment, Gender discrimination, even threats to my safety (ever try to show a house where you had to lock up the rottweiler first?) and the IRS.

NOTHING came close to the sort of experiences my high school students dealt with every day. I've never been threatened, as an adult, with a gang member pulling a knife on me because I was wearing the wrong color scarf. I've never been beaten up because I DIDN'T cheat on a test. I've never had any of those sorts of experiences, but my daughter did. As a direct result she left high school and finished her work as a home school pupil. That was my first experience with home school and the differences between the two experiences. My daughter and I remember those two years with a great deal of fondness, AND laughter...it was amazing.

Oh, and she didn't have any problems at all either getting into, or doing the work of, college.

Oh, and she doesn't have any problems at all dealing with adult social situations.

Those aren't the norm for high schools across the country.

 

[1137]

Honestly I don't really care anymore. Hell we just replaced Christian education with materialism and that's even less supported than creationism! Obviously there's no winning.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Honestly I don't really care anymore. Hell we just replaced Christian education with materialism and that's even less supported than creationism! Obviously there's no winning.

How is evolution less supported than creationism?

 

[Audie]

How is evolution less supported than creationism?

Fewer people in the world would vote for it?

 

[John53]

In American public school, I got the impression it was for kids at about
the 30th percentile. I mostly just read a book on my lap.

30% is probably closer to the truth for here too, I hated high school not because of bullying but because I was bored. I'm certainly not gifted but I was smart enough to scrape through without trying so I left at 16 to work on the family dairy farm but that wasn't unusual back in the 70's. The most valuable lesson I learnt at school was how to appear busy whilst doing nothing.