Creationism in schools...

[dianaiad]

Every school has gangs that threaten the lives of other students if they wear the wrong colors? Seriously?

Odd. I don't see where I said that, precisely. I WILL say that every urban school does.

Those aren't the norm for high schools across the country.

Y'know, nobody here has given any actual statistics regarding this...though I think I came the closest. At least I have given my 'bona fides' as an expert, given that I DID teach and have been dealing with this issue for quite a few years now.

Still, all any of us have put forward is anecdotal evidence, which, frankly, isn't.
Evidence, that is.

Here's something to think about:

According to one study, NCASA at Columbia University in 2010, 46% of public high school students reported gang activity in their schools, as opposed to 2% of students in private schools.

I AM aware that in my area, which is a 'bedroom community' of the greater LA area and is considered solidly 'suburban," the number of public high schools that have gang problems, out of the eight high schools that service this area, is....seven. The only reason the eighth does not is because it is a 'continuation' school for students who have been expelled from other high schools because they, er...have been participating in gang activities. Their behavior in the 'continuation' school is VERY strictly monitored. So, while every single student in that school is a gang member, there aren't any gang 'problems.'

It's hard to get upset about someone else's wardrobe choices when everybody has to wear white t-shirts, a specific style of blue jeans, a very specific style of shoe, and has a body search EVERY TIME s/he enters the classroom. In fact, the students at the local 'Juvie" are more free to express themselves and to move around than these students.

..................and I love those students. Long story about them, but I love working with them. Prefer them over anybody.

OK, anybody else?

 

[gnostic]

I'm embarrassed that Ham is Australian however I'm ecstatic he moved to America. I'm thinking he had to, he wouldn't have found a big enough audience for his BS here.

Why not send Deepak Chopra while you're at it?

I didn’t know Ham was an Australian. That’s unfortunate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn’t know Ham was an Australian. That’s unfortunate.

And Ray Comfort is from New Zealand.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Odd. I don't see where I said that, precisely. I WILL say that every urban school does.

How do you know this? Does Beverly Hills High have MS13 walking around?

Y'know, nobody here has given any actual statistics regarding this...though I think I came the closest. At least I have given my 'bona fides' as an expert, given that I DID teach and have been dealing with this issue for quite a few years now.

Still, all any of us have put forward is anecdotal evidence, which, frankly, isn't.
Evidence, that is.

Here's something to think about:

According to one study, NCASA at Columbia University in 2010, 46% of public high school students reported gang activity in their schools, as opposed to 2% of students in private schools.

I AM aware that in my area, which is a 'bedroom community' of the greater LA area and is considered solidly 'suburban," the number of public high schools that have gang problems, out of the eight high schools that service this area, is....seven. The only reason the eighth does not is because it is a 'continuation' school for students who have been expelled from other high schools because they, er...have been participating in gang activities. Their behavior in the 'continuation' school is VERY strictly monitored. So, while every single student in that school is a gang member, there aren't any gang 'problems.'

It's hard to get upset about someone else's wardrobe choices when everybody has to wear white t-shirts, a specific style of blue jeans, a very specific style of shoe, and has a body search EVERY TIME s/he enters the classroom. In fact, the students at the local 'Juvie" are more free to express themselves and to move around than these students.

..................and I love those students. Long story about them, but I love working with them. Prefer them over anybody.

OK, anybody else?

As you say, it is anecdotal evidence, and that's fine. I wish there wasn't gang problems in any public school. All I was speaking about before is the potential downsides of home schooling which is a lack of socializing. I suspect that almost all home school parents are well aware of this and are trying to supply education on the social front as well.

 

[dianaiad]

How do you know this? Does Beverly Hills High have MS13 walking around?

Dunno much about their presence, but the Crips and their offshoots are heavily represented in that area, as are the "Bloods," the Surenos, etc. Not everybody who goes to Beverly Hills High lives in zip code 90210. ...and not everybody who lives in 90210 lives in a mansion and works in the entertainment industry.

What sort of imaginative construct do you have of that area?

As you say, it is anecdotal evidence, and that's fine. I wish there wasn't gang problems in any public school. All I was speaking about before is the potential downsides of home schooling which is a lack of socializing. I suspect that almost all home school parents are well aware of this and are trying to supply education on the social front as well.

They do....and those who are involved (and they'd better be involved) do a pretty good job of it. For one thing, most homeschoolers associate with other homeschoolers, as well as their church groups, or, if they are not affiliated with a church (and more and more homeschoolers are not) they have other groups and associations to join.

BEING homeschoolers, they have a far wider choice of groups to join, and quite a few more opportunities to explore other interests, as well as places to volunteer.

Well, you can tell that I'm a fan of homeschooling, done well. "Done well" being the operative phrase. However, from where I sit, homeschooling done even passably beats public school 'done well."

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Dunno much about their presence, but the Crips and their offshoots are heavily represented in that area, as are the "Bloods," the Surenos, etc. Not everybody who goes to Beverly Hills High lives in zip code 90210. ...and not everybody who lives in 90210 lives in a mansion and works in the entertainment industry.

What sort of imaginative construct do you have of that area?

I imagine it is very much like the urban area I live in now where gang activity is all but absent from the school system.

They do....and those who are involved (and they'd better be involved) do a pretty good job of it. For one thing, most homeschoolers associate with other homeschoolers, as well as their church groups, or, if they are not affiliated with a church (and more and more homeschoolers are not) they have other groups and associations to join.

BEING homeschoolers, they have a far wider choice of groups to join, and quite a few more opportunities to explore other interests, as well as places to volunteer.

Well, you can tell that I'm a fan of homeschooling, done well. "Done well" being the operative phrase. However, from where I sit, homeschooling done even passably beats public school 'done well."

I fully agree. Homeschooling gives kids a great advantage when done well. What I have seen personally and what I dread are parents who are afraid of having their kids out in public at all. They want to shelter their kids from the outside world. In at least one case, both kids have serious social issues. I certainly don't say this as a condemnation of home schooling in general, only that I have seen it abused in some cases.

 

[John53]

I didn’t know Ham was an Australian. That’s unfortunate.

Queenslander so not really an Aussie

 

[Subduction Zone]

Queenslander so not really an Aussie

That sounds like an American saying that Texas was not part of the U.S..

 

[gnostic]

And Ray Comfort is from New Zealand.

The first forum that I ever join, from 2003 to 2006, Free2Code, forum for computer programmers, had a small section on Religion. It was where I first YmirGF.

It was there, that I first heard of Ray Comfort. There was a number of threads started by “Ray Comfort” in 2004-05. I don’t know if it is really “Comfort”, or someone who used his name as alias.

I don’t remember much what this Comfort wrote, because his opening post in each different threads were very long monologues.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The first forum that I ever join, from 2003 to 2006, Free2Code, forum for computer programmers, had a small section on Religion. It was where I first YmirGF.

It was there, that I first heard of Ray Comfort. There was a number of threads started by “Ray Comfort” in 2004-05. I don’t know if it is really “Comfort”, or someone who used his name as alias.

I don’t remember much what this Comfort wrote, because his opening post in each different threads were very long monologues.

Sounds like Ray. Now he loves to do video snippets of a mixture of mostly ignorant people and one or two people that understand the topic being discussed. Of course quotes are taken out of context and sometimes he has been caught changing what people meant to say by doing so.

 

[gnostic]

Sounds like Ray. Now he loves to do video snippets of a mixture of mostly ignorant people and one or two people that understand the topic being discussed. Of course quotes are taken out of context and sometimes he has been caught changing what people meant to say by doing so.

I don’t know if it is really Ray Comfort or not, but perhaps YmirGF remember more of RC’s posts and know more. It has been too long ago, and Free2Code has been shutdown, so I have no access to old threads.

And, yes. It is a very typical tactics of most creationists that I have encountered, where they changed contexts of what people actually written.

And they also have the the tendencies to leave out entire articles, by just providing only small snippets, which they can take them out of context.

 

[John53]

That sounds like an American saying that Texas was not part of the U.S..

At least you can give Texas back to Mexico, we're stuck with Queensland!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t know if it is really Ray Comfort or not, but perhaps YmirGF remember more of RC’s posts and know more. It has been too long ago, and Free2Code has been shutdown, so I have no access to old threads.

And, yes. It is a very typical tactics of most creationists that I have encountered, where they changed contexts of what people actually written.

And they also have the the tendencies to leave out entire articles, by just providing only small snippets, which they can take them out of context.

They get practice quote mining by abusing their own Bible. Have you ever heard the claim of hundreds of confirmed prophecies about Jesus? Most of those are not prophecies but rather single verses taken out of context and they sound vaguely like they could be about some event in his life. But when read in context that is clearly not the case.

Christians do not seem to think it is blasphemy when one uses the Bible to lie for Jesus.

 

[gnostic]

They get practice quote mining by abusing their own Bible. Have you ever heard the claim of hundreds of confirmed prophecies about Jesus? Most of those are not prophecies but rather single verses taken out of context and they sound vaguely like they could be about some event in his life. But when read in context that is clearly not the case.

The so-called prophecies or signs of Jesus, is one of the things that made me doubt Christian teachings in the first place.

It had nothing to do with creationism vs evolution.

My doubts started (in 2000-2001) with the gospel (Matthew) interpretation of Isaiah’s sign (7:14). That led me to doubt in other areas of the Old Testament. It was what started my journey as an agnostic.

I didn’t question the creation until 2003, when I joined Free2Code forum. I didn’t know anything about evolution at that time, so I attempt to understand evolution from my cousin’s old biology textbook.

Reading the textbook don’t make me an expert in any way, but at least in give me some insight as to what evolution is about.

All I see from creationists are their ignorance and insecurities, and most often dishonest tactics on how they deal with evolution question.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The so-called prophecies or signs of Jesus, is one of the things that made me doubt Christian teachings in the first place.

It had nothing to do with creationism vs evolution.

My doubts started (in 2000-2001) with the gospel (Matthew) interpretation of Isaiah’s sign (7:14). That led me to doubt in other areas of the Old Testament. It was what started my journey as an agnostic.

I didn’t question the creation until 2003, when I joined Free2Code forum. I didn’t know anything about evolution at that time, so I attempt to understand evolution from my cousin’s old biology textbook.

Reading the textbook don’t make me an expert in any way, but at least in give me some insight as to what evolution is about.

All I see from creationists are their ignorance and insecurities, and most often dishonest tactics on how they deal with evolution question.

One thing that I have found over the years of debating is that people that have no fear about what they are debating will debate honestly. They will accurately portray what their opponents believe because they think that is a weakness of theirs.

I have noticed that creationists cannot correctly describe evolution or the evidence involved. That implies one of two things to me, either they are very stupid or very afraid that they are wrong. And I doubt if very many are very stupid.

 

[gnostic]

Should creationism be taught in schools or colleges?

It would only be “yes”, if they are taught in the confines of subjects, like “bible studies”, “theology” or “comparative religions” or “comparative mythology”.

And if such subjects exist in schools or colleges, no one should be force to take it, meaning, it would be “elective” only subjects. If students want more, then go to Sunday school or go to church.

In the science classrooms, then no, because Creationism isn’t science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Should creationism be taught in schools or colleges?

It would only be “yes”, if they are taught in the confines of subjects, like “bible studies”, “theology” or “comparative religions” or “comparative mythology”.

And if such subjects exist in schools or colleges, no one should be force to take it, meaning, it would be “elective” only subjects. If students want more, then go to Sunday school or go to church.

In the science classrooms, then no, because Creationism isn’t science.

Creationists tend to hate that. They want their beliefs to be taught as if they were true or even possibly true. When one compares them to other myths the silliness of their stories are apparent even to them. Cognitive dissonance will not allow that.

 

[Cacotopia]

I'm embarrassed that Ham is Australian however I'm ecstatic he moved to America. I'm thinking he had to, he wouldn't have found a big enough audience for his BS here.

Too many of the Jedi faith in Australia for his lunacy to take hold.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Too many of the Jedi faith in Australia for his lunacy to take hold.

Ironically watching Star Wars: A New Hope, as I read this.

 

[Cacotopia]

Ironically watching Star Wars: A New Hope, as I read this.

Jedi census phenomenon - Wikipedia for further info. I think it's great.