Creationist - what is your understanding of TOE?

[Autodidact]

Theifs views are not out of line with other "Theistic Creationists".... would you guys also grill Ken Miller?
Or myself (though I use Theistic Creationist rather loosely for myself)?

wa:do

I have no idea what Theif's views are. I've never understood his posts.

 

[camanintx]

God is creator.

He did it a long time ago.

So you're suggesting that time existed before the universe?

 

[Intrigued]

Here is something I recommend afew of you read Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[painted wolf]

thats a blow below the belt and you know it. I have a open mind and learn on a daily basis.

Is it? You seem to insist that the only way Genesis can be viewed is as a literal account of the origin of the universe. In this way you are just as much a literalist as she is, just on the other side of the debate.

really, how so??????

The Hebrews are not the oldest culture on the planet. It's well known that several cultures preceded them.

I agree, im sure religion or spirits go back to our early ancentors. If man had imagination he had religion.

Makes you wonder about other intelligent species. Elephants understand and mourn death... perhaps religious thinking isn't limited to humans.
There is some research that suggests that spiritual thinking has adaptive benefit. Check out the "invisible princess Alice" experiments.

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

It's well known that several cultures preceded them.

yes and they had their own god myths in which I strongly believe the hebrews took to base their god from.

the ancient hebrews were a melting pot of different cultures and their religion is no exeption. Its a compilation of previous pagan beliefs in my opinion.

the hebrew god does not match one od the previous pagan gods.

You seem to insist that the only way Genesis can be viewed is as a literal account of the origin of the universe

Do I??? I know its allegorical material never ment to be read literal. its a fable with no truth regarding creation.

Makes you wonder about other intelligent species. Elephants understand and mourn death... perhaps religious thinking isn't limited to humans.
There is some research that suggests that spiritual thinking has adaptive benefit. Check out the "invisible princess Alice" experiments.

I agree

 

[painted wolf]

yes and they had their own god myths in which I strongly believe the hebrews took to base their god from.

the ancient hebrews were a melting pot of different cultures and their religion is no exeption. Its a compilation of previous pagan beliefs in my opinion.

Then why did you state that god didn't predate the Hebrews?

the hebrew god does not match one od the previous pagan gods.

How do you know? There are a lot of cultures we know very little or nothing about.

Do I??? I know its allegorical material never ment to be read literal. its a fable with no truth regarding creation.

I'm confused...Then why were insisting that Christians like Thief have to take Genesis literally to believe in God?

Why would you say "you can't have it both ways" if you didn't believe that people have to take Genesis literally?

wa:do

 

[Thief]

The Bible preaches creationism, which is in direct contradiction to evolution. So yes, in a way the bible does deny evolution.

Evolution on Day Six.
Go forth be fruitful multiply.
No names.... no law.... no restrictions.... no garden.
Man as animal.

Not to mention in the entire bible, evolution is not mentioned a single time, nor anything closely resembling evolution.

There are a lot of words that are not in the bible.

Like...'smile'....

 

[Thief]

This claim is unfounded and is not, and as you admit, can not be backed by any empirical evidence thus the claim itself is moot.

Evolution is real enough....God did it.

What evidence do you have that your god intervened in his own creation to make changes considering your own bible says....

Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Everything at this point was already "made" and there is no more information from chapter one to chapter 2 (a completely new creation story) that your god set forth the evolution of species.

Chapter Two is not a retelling of Chapter One.
(In all fairness..there's a new version....it strips the name of Moses...
and the title of Genesis.)

Another issue is in chapter 2 itself. When man is created (part deux) is created fully formed so we can't gather any information here that your god set forth evolution. What is more interesting is the "creation" of woman from the genetic material of man. Can you explain, scientifically, how such a thing is possible?

Chapter two is a story of manipulation...not creation.

You're simply missing reading to your own belief...or lack of it.

 

[outhouse]

Then why did you state that god didn't predate the Hebrews?

people define god as the abrahamic god and as far as they are concered, his existance is not up for debate. He did not exist before hebrews wrote about him

How do you know? There are a lot of cultures we know very little or nothing about.

actually we know allot about ancient hebrews and we know more about sumerian and egyptian cultures becuase they were more advanced then hebrews.

The egyptian gods were nothing like the abrahamic god, same for the sumerian gods.

This would be on you to prove your god was speaking to some other people. All ancient people had spirits and gods and myths for what they did not know out of ignorance. So far there has never been a simular god to the ancient hebrew god as myths in my opinion based on imagination are never the same. Its also why NO religions are a like.

AS far as im concerned, belief in a deity is primitive. You are forced to believe in something no one knows anything about based on ancient mans imagination because he knew so little about the natural world around him. You only worship any particular god based on geographic location ONLY.

I'm confused...Then why were insisting that Christians like Thief have to take Genesis literally to believe in God?

were making a point, the problem with religion is picking and choosing which scripture you will or will not believe in. all abrahamic god creation myths are based on genesis, you want to believe in creation but discount the rest because its far fetched. Im saying any creation myth is far fetched not just some of it.

Why would you say "you can't have it both ways" if you didn't believe that people have to take Genesis literally?

either none of the bible is accurate or it all is, regarding creation. riding in the middle is to avoid all the evidence showing the creation myth is man made.

after doing studies on the first 5 books of the bible and local history in the levant and knowing cultures for 4000 years before hebrews and knowing how the first 5 books were written its obvious to me there was no divine source for one bit of the material

logic, reason, and reality prevail and make it obvious fiction. I see no where in nature that a god figure stepped in and lifted a finger to do anything, at any time, anywhere!

 

[painted wolf]

people define god as the abrahamic god and as far as they are concered, his existance is not up for debate. He did not exist before hebrews wrote about him

How do you know? Do things only exist once they are written down?

ps... I don't define god as the Abrahamic god... I'm not a member of an abrahamic faith.

actually we know allot about ancient hebrews and we know more about sumerian and egyptian cultures becuase they were more advanced then hebrews.

Yes, and there are lots of cultures we don't know a lot about... especially pre-literate ones. We know very little about pre-literate Hebrew culture for example.

The egyptian gods were nothing like the abrahamic god, same for the sumerian gods.

So what? What does that have to do with it?

This would be on you to prove your god was speaking to some other people. All ancient people had spirits and gods and myths for what they did not know out of ignorance. So far there has never been a simular god to the ancient hebrew god as myths in my opinion based on imagination are never the same. Its also why NO religions are a like.

pssst... I'm not Abrahamic.
But why are there so may languages, so many cultures and so on? Everything evolves and diversifies over time.

AS far as im concerned, belief in a deity is primitive. You are forced to believe in something no one knows anything about based on ancient mans imagination because he knew so little about the natural world around him. You only worship any particular god based on geographic location ONLY.

Not only based on geographic location. Many faiths are or are nearly global. And I chose the religion I'm in based on study and exploration.
But anyway, there is nothing wrong with "primitive". The ability to make fire is primitive but it's still vital to our survival.

Ancient and "primitive" people aren't stupid. You are only where you are today because they did all the hard work of figuring the world out for you. :sarcastic
I don't see how you get to pretend to be superior to other humans based solely on the time and culture you were born into. :no:

were making a point, the problem with religion is picking and choosing which scripture you will or will not believe in. all abrahamic god creation myths are based on genesis, you want to believe in creation but discount the rest because its far fetched. Im saying any creation myth is far fetched not just some of it.

Here we come back to you insisting that scripture needs to be taken literally.

either none of the bible is accurate or it all is, regarding creation. riding in the middle is to avoid all the evidence showing the creation myth is man made.

Again, such fundamentalist views are grossly misinformed.

after doing studies on the first 5 books of the bible and local history in the levant and knowing cultures for 4000 years before hebrews and knowing how the first 5 books were written its obvious to me there was no divine source for one bit of the material

Who said it had to be divine? It's an origin story to unite a culture under a shared identity. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

Do you take the myths you were taught about the founding of the USA literally as well?
A lot of US history is "lies to children" a grand myth of our wise and noble founding fathers who bravely united and fought the evils of a mighty empire. It's a myth 400 years in the making.

logic, reason, and reality prevail and make it obvious fiction. I see no where in nature that a god figure stepped in and lifted a finger to do anything, at any time, anywhere!

Good for you.

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

How do you know? Do things only exist once they are written down?

once they are written down we know how they compare. So far not one religion compares to another.

I know because there is no evidence of the hebrew god in any simular way in any other culture. That and it is easy to see how ancient hebrews created their god.

I think you need to show that a god is more then imagination and creativity if you want me to take a god seriously.

We know very little about pre-literate Hebrew culture for example

that is only a 250 years window your talking about. Hebrews only go back 1250BC we start getting ancient hebrew writing from about 1000BC. They were in need of a religion as all people of any new culture had to have some god, so in my opinion they created theirs. they were a melting pot of different cultures and it shows in the early biblical writing. The same early writing the creation myth comes from.

So what? What does that have to do with it?

the hebrew god is a compilation of these egyptian and sumerian cultures as well as other local semetic cultures in the levant.

ps... I don't define god as the Abrahamic god... I'm not a member of an abrahamic faith.

ok so your a minority

when you stated god, people assume its the abrahamic god because to most of the population, there is no other god.

Who said it had to be divine? It's an origin story to unite a culture under a shared identity. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

about a two third's of the worlds population believes in the abrahamic god that is who says it has to be divine.

your right it is a story to unite a culture. The problem lies in that most of the world does not look at it that way, they look at it as a literal work

A lot of US history is "lies to children" a grand myth of our wise and noble founding fathers who bravely united and fought the evils of a mighty empire. It's a myth 400 years in the making.

i have a problem with how that myth is swept under the rug so to speak textually as well. I understand this with my native american herritage.

 

[painted wolf]

once they are written down we know how they compare. So far not one religion compares to another.

Says someone who admits they haven't studied let alone heard of most of the worlds religions.

I know because there is no evidence of the hebrew god in any simular way in any other culture. That and it is easy to see how ancient hebrews created their god.

Any? Are you sure... you know so much about all the worlds ancient cultures?
Even the pre-literate ones?

I think you need to show that a god is more then imagination and creativity if you want me to take a god seriously.

I don't really care if you take god seriously...
I just want you to stop making broad unsupportable generalizations about religion. And to stop needlessly harping on people for no good reason.

that is only a 250 years window your talking about. Hebrews only go back 1250BC we start getting ancient hebrew writing from about 1000BC. They were in need of a religion as all people of any new culture had to have some god, so in my opinion they created theirs. they were a melting pot of different cultures and it shows in the early biblical writing. The same early writing the creation myth comes from.

A lot can happen in 250 years. Not to mention that the proto-Hebrew tribes are little known and that the biblical Hebrew god was likely one of several tribal gods among them.

And that human history goes back tens of thousands of years... you can't possibly say what gods, if any, were or were not worshiped with absolute certainty.

the hebrew god is a compilation of these egyptian and sumerian cultures as well as other local semetic cultures in the levant.

No, the Hebrew scriptures are... big difference.

ok so your a minority

when you stated god, people assume its the abrahamic god because to most of the population, there is no other god.

Actually it's about 50/50 between Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic mostly thanks to the populations of India and China.

about a two third's of the worlds population believes in the abrahamic god that is who says it has to be divine.

You need to check your numbers.

your right it is a story to unite a culture. The problem lies in that most of the world does not look at it that way, they look at it as a literal work

Do they really? You know this as an indisputable fact? I'm willing to bet that most of the world doesn't really care, they are too busy just trying to survive.

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

I just want you to stop making broad unsupportable generalizations about religion.

then back it up with something besides imagination.

I say man has been imagining gods and spirits for hundreds of thousands of years if not millions. [atleast going back to homo erectus]

let me share some facts with you.

all tribes or people have spirits or gods, the less educated and the more primitive and the farther away a tribe is from modern society. The more wacked out and crazy their beliefs are. This is a fact.

primitive man always has a spirit or god for what he does not know. this is a fact.

No ancient culture ever knew about the evolution or origins of man. Most religions all have a creation myth based on what they did not know about nature.

the creation story in the bible, genesis. Is fiction. None of what they wrote about is any where near reality. They were fables from other cultures told orally around campfires for 300-500 years before they were written. These fables all come from cultures before the hebrews were hebrews.

next thing your going to talk like wilson or newhope and tell me the worldwide flood and ark really happened because god was angry and decided to commit genocide.

your doing what they both do, saying because we dont know, it might be true.

Please dont tell me people of the earth all spoke the same language before the tower of babel, or eve came from a mcrib sandwich

 

[painted wolf]

then back it up with something besides imagination.

Science relies on imagination.

I say man has been imagining gods and spirits for hundreds of thousands of years if not millions. [atleast going back to homo erectus]

let me share some facts with you.

all tribes or people have spirits or gods, the less educated and the more primitive and the farther away a tribe is from modern society. The more wacked out and crazy their beliefs are. This is a fact.

Orly? Back that fact up please.
Are they more wacked out than the Raelians... Heavens Gate... Scientology?

primitive man always has a spirit or god for what he does not know. this is a fact.

My point exactly... so what?

No ancient culture ever knew about the evolution or origins of man. Most religions all have a creation myth based on what they did not know about nature.

How many creation stories have you studied? You admit you haven't even skimmed the major ones outside of Genesis.

Why do you keep insisting you have absolute knowledge of what you have admitted you are ignorant about?

the creation story in the bible, genesis. Is fiction. None of what they wrote about is any where near reality. They were fables from other cultures told orally around campfires for 300-500 years before they were written. These fables all come from cultures before the hebrews were hebrews.

So what? What does this have to do with anything but tail chasing?
What we are discussing is the fact that these stories have meaning... regardless of their factual nature.

next thing your going to talk like wilson or newhope and tell me the worldwide flood and ark really happened because god was angry and decided to commit genocide.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha... :biglaugh:
I'm not the one insisting Genesis needs to be literal to be worthwhile btw.

your doing what they both do, saying because we dont know, it might be true.

No.. I'm saying because we don't know...we don't know.
You are the one insisting that because we don't know then the answer is automatically no.

Please dont tell me people of the earth all spoke the same language before the tower of babel, or eve came from a mcrib sandwich

Don't be stupid. And stop insisting that all religious people need to conform to your strawman.:slap:

wa:do

 

[Breathe]

Don't be stupid. And stop insisting that all religious people need to conform to your strawman.:slap:

But that's no fun!

 

[outhouse]

ID isnt just a strawman, its a religious myth.

 

[Thief]

ID isnt just a strawman, its a religious myth.

Believing that science begets spirit is a myth.

 

[aenamjj]

I've never met anyone opposed to evolutionary theory who has actually demonstrated even a basic understanding of what it is.

Well the whole debate is quite simple - Evolution and creation are part of each other. God organised the earth and everything in, on and around it including the laws of nature. Natural life cycle involve changes and that which we observed is evolving, which must NOT be confused with the 'THEORY of evolution' (DARWIN's theory; where all life forms evolved from one point, is not true. Have not and will never be proven as nature in its course is too pefect, from the atom to the order of planetary cycle, the probability of such a chance is too small even to exist. Nature does not take chances, it drive it course perfectly which must not be misunderstood by the consistance interfearance to the eco-system by men that causes the imbalance in life on he planet by means of deforestation, over fishing etc.
The natural evolution does not need to be proven in any way as we are part of it, we are born and we evolve into becoming a child and evolve into becoming an adult, like a seed to a plant and egg to bird etc.

Thus one does not need to meet anyone or to do so concerning the understanding of the evolution theory, cause deep inside, everyone knows for themselves that they have NEVER seen a dog change into a cat, or sheep give birth a bird, a whale to a lion etc. There are no universal size, shape, colour, texture or any of the like. So as part of the human race we look different that does not mean we are part of a different spices [it is so because of the environment and the food we eat. There is not fruit tree or veg that grows worldwide, every part of the earth supports a different kind of fruit trees and veg.]

I believe a lot of people do know what the theory of evolution is but they are confused with the natural process of evolution or evolving. The fact to note with the 'natural evolution' is that everything evolve within its own kind, order, spices etc proving what God said and Gen 1.

 

[outhouse]

Well the whole debate is quite simple - Evolution and creation are part of each other. God organised the earth and everything in, on and around it including the laws of nature. Natural life cycle involve changes and that which we observed is evolving, which must NOT be confused with the 'THEORY of evolution' (DARWIN's theory; where all life forms evolved from one point, is not true. Have not and will never be proven as nature in its course is too pefect, from the atom to the order of planetary cycle, the probability of such a chance is too small even to exist. Nature does not take chances, it drive it course perfectly which must not be misunderstood by the consistance interfearance to the eco-system by men that causes the imbalance in life on he planet by means of deforestation, over fishing etc.
The natural evolution does not need to be proven in any way as we are part of it, we are born and we evolve into becoming a child and evolve into becoming an adult, like a seed to a plant and egg to bird etc.

Thus one does not need to meet anyone or to do so concerning the understanding of the evolution theory, cause deep inside, everyone knows for themselves that they have NEVER seen a dog change into a cat, or sheep give birth a bird, a whale to a lion etc. There are no universal size, shape, colour, texture or any of the like. So as part of the human race we look different that does not mean we are part of a different spices [it is so because of the environment and the food we eat. There is not fruit tree or veg that grows worldwide, every part of the earth supports a different kind of fruit trees and veg.]

I believe a lot of people do know what the theory of evolution is but they are confused with the natural process of evolution or evolving. The fact to note with the 'natural evolution' is that everything evolve within its own kind, order, spices etc proving what God said and Gen 1.

Kilgore said it perfect and your post is proof

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout
I've never met anyone opposed to evolutionary theory who has actually demonstrated even a basic understanding of what it is.

 

[McBell]

Well the whole debate is quite simple - Evolution and creation are part of each other. God organised the earth and everything in, on and around it including the laws of nature. Natural life cycle involve changes and that which we observed is evolving, which must NOT be confused with the 'THEORY of evolution' (DARWIN's theory; where all life forms evolved from one point, is not true. Have not and will never be proven as nature in its course is too pefect, from the atom to the order of planetary cycle, the probability of such a chance is too small even to exist. Nature does not take chances, it drive it course perfectly which must not be misunderstood by the consistance interfearance to the eco-system by men that causes the imbalance in life on he planet by means of deforestation, over fishing etc.
The natural evolution does not need to be proven in any way as we are part of it, we are born and we evolve into becoming a child and evolve into becoming an adult, like a seed to a plant and egg to bird etc.

Thus one does not need to meet anyone or to do so concerning the understanding of the evolution theory, cause deep inside, everyone knows for themselves that they have NEVER seen a dog change into a cat, or sheep give birth a bird, a whale to a lion etc. There are no universal size, shape, colour, texture or any of the like. So as part of the human race we look different that does not mean we are part of a different spices [it is so because of the environment and the food we eat. There is not fruit tree or veg that grows worldwide, every part of the earth supports a different kind of fruit trees and veg.]

I believe a lot of people do know what the theory of evolution is but they are confused with the natural process of evolution or evolving. The fact to note with the 'natural evolution' is that everything evolve within its own kind, order, spices etc proving what God said and Gen 1.

Kirk?
Kirk Cameron?
Is that you?