• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Creationists: "Kind" = Species; species that evolve.

David M

Well-Known Member
I already have..You truly know sqaut don't you. Wiki summarises alot of the evidence, cites and references the research. My evidence is backed up. So far all I have heard from you is misinformation, misinterpretation and downright ignorance. You may be able to find work that supports just your view. Unfortuntely for you, science doesn't hang on what you think or your narrow views. True scientists accept the full body of work and acknowlege it in putting forward their findings.

The work that supports my view is the very things that you are quoting. And those things perfectly illustrate that you are still making the same mistake in wilfully failing to differentiate between tribe (which is a smoke screen that you raised) and genus (which is the term I used).

In your desperatation to avoid admitting that reputable scientists were only ever discussing where "hobbits" fitted into the Genus homo you just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.

...according to Wiki and all other evolutionary scientists Hominini does include bonobo and chimpanzee.

According to your sources:

Is Hominini a tribe or a genus? Simple question.

What Genus are the bonobo and chimpanzee? Simple question.

What Genus are modern humans? Simple question.

What Genus were "hobbits" in every single mention in your quotes? Simple question.

Just so you don't make yourself look even more desparate H. Sapiens is Genus and Species not Tribe and Species, just like it is for all life.

So there you are out in orbit on your own with your credentials in hand. You need to stop referring to a comic book. So floresiensis may have been a modern human or a chimp according to your researchers...

Either a lie or complete ignorance. Both quotes you provided placed floresiensis in the Genus Homo and not in the Genus Pan.

Provide evidence of a researcher saying that "hobbits" should be P. floresiensis or retract.

that says it all. I do not pretend to have credentials. I can use the words of your own evolutionary researchers to fight you with. The laugh is, that you do not even accept the words or resesrch from your own scientists if it doesn't meld with your ego.

No, you are ignoring what the researchers said and flat out misrepresenting the facts.

Boy am I going to have some fun if these lunatics ever put chimps in the homo line like some are trying to. Go on have a go at that statement, and call it a lie and show your ignorance yet again. Please......

Provide evidence that any reputable scientist is arguing that chimpanzees should be in the H. sapiens line or admit that its a lie.

Here...learn....

In your case, read and look up the hard words in a dictionary.

Wiki Floresiensis
The discoverers (archaeologist Mike Morwood and colleagues) proposed that a variety of features, both primitive and derived, identify these individuals as belonging to a new species, H. floresiensis, within the taxonomic tribe of Hominini. Hominini currently comprises the extant species human (the only living member of the genus Homo), bonobo (genus Pan), and chimpanzee (genus Pan); their ancestors; and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor.[1][3] The discoverers also proposed that H. floresiensis lived contemporaneously with modern humans (Homo sapiens) on Flores.[4]

Tribe and Genus are different things. This quote shows that they are talking about where H. floresiensis fits within the Genus Homo. The big hint is that they are calling them Homo floresiensis.

Wiki Homonini
Hominini is the tribe of Homininae that comprises Humans (Homo), and two species of the genus Pan (the Common Chimpanzee and the Bonobo), their ancestors, and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor. Members of the tribe are called hominins (cf. Hominidae, "hominids"). The subtribe Hominina is the "human" branch,including genus Homoand its close relatives, but not Pan

Again you prove my point and demonstrate your ignorance. I've highlighted the important concepts. Floresiensis is in the genus Homo (Human being) and chimps and bononos are in the Genus Pan.

So again, provide evidence of reputable scientist disputing that "hobbits" are members of the Genus Homo (a word that means human being) or admit your ignorance on the subject.

Alternatively you can post another section from Wiki or Science Daily that demonstrates that all the reseachers are placing "hobbits" in the genus Homo.
 
Last edited:

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
The hobbit was never considered anything but a member of the genus Homo.... the only debate is if it was a member of our species, sapiens or if it was it's own species floresiensis.

You are confusing Species, Genus and Tribe.

Hobbits were never considered outside the genus Homo.

wa:do
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I think in my opinion all this talk of species and kind is a way for creationist to run sideways with the arguement, they cant make a single step foward and there blocked with reality at every step. So tired of loosing they run sideways into gray areas trying to make noise in a place that no one can hear them.

doesnt matter whos right as far as floresiensis but we know who is, this is all despite the facts. the facts do show how mankind has evolved over the last 7 million years

Cant creationist look in a mirror and ask thereselves why would god create a clear set of stepping stones from primitive man to man AND imagine that! the farther you go back the more primate looking early man becomes OMG LOL :)
 

newhope101

Active Member
The hobbit was never considered anything but a member of the genus Homo.... the only debate is if it was a member of our species, sapiens or if it was it's own species floresiensis.

You are confusing Species, Genus and Tribe.

Hobbits were never considered outside the genus Homo.

wa:do


Paintedwolf...I have pasted research that speaks to florensiensis being queried as belonging to homonini. Here I'll put it up again: Yes, they were thought to be a cretin but reasearchers do not have a chimp with cretinism so with these fossils they were unsure and still are. There are many fossils from Flores. Researchers have proposed cretinism as well as many other hypothesis and one of them was that florensiensis belongs with homonini. ..and hominini includes chimps. I am not confused. Please see below where HOMININI is cited. Simply saying Wiki is wrong and that the cited research does not exist does not cut it. Wiki entries go through a panel for 'acceptance'. That is the sort of forum where acceptance is required for work to be reflected on the site. Refering to only some researchers works really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things..

Let's not forget that LUCA and florensisenses were given up as examples of evolutionary debate. Florensiensis is just one example of well credentialed researchers having good evidence to support opposing views...and that happens all the time in the evolutionary sciences, it is not infrequent.

Wiki: The discoverers (archaeologist Mike Morwood and colleagues) proposed that a variety of features, both primitive and derived, identify these individuals as belonging to a new species, H. floresiensis, within the taxonomic tribe of Hominini. Hominini currently comprises the extant species human (the only living member of the genus Homo), bonobo (genus Pan), and chimpanzee (genus Pan); their ancestors; and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor.[1][3] The discoverers also proposed that H. floresiensis lived contemporaneously with modern humans (Homo sapiens) on Flores.[4]

Two orthopedic researches published in 2007 both reported evidence to support species status for H. floresiensis. A study of three tokens of carpal (wrist) bones concluded there were similarities to the carpal bones of a chimpanzee or an early hominin such as Australopithecus and also differences from the bones of modern humans.[8][9] A study of the bones and joints of the arm, shoulder, and lower limbs also concluded that H. floresiensis was more similar to early humans and apes than modern humans.[10][11] In 2009, the publication of a cladistic analysis[12] and a study of comparative body measurements[13] provided further support for the hypothesis that H. floresiensis and Homo sapiens are separate species.
Critics of the claim for species status continue to believe that these individuals are Homo sapiens possessing pathologies of anatomy and physiology. A second hypothesis in this category is that the individuals were born without a functioning thyroid, resulting in a type of endemic cretinism (myxoedematous, ME).[14]

PS..did you have nothing to add to the "high genetic similarity" discussion?
 
Last edited:

newhope101

Active Member
I think in my opinion all this talk of species and kind is a way for creationist to run sideways with the arguement, they cant make a single step foward and there blocked with reality at every step. So tired of loosing they run sideways into gray areas trying to make noise in a place that no one can hear them.

doesnt matter whos right as far as floresiensis but we know who is, this is all despite the facts. the facts do show how mankind has evolved over the last 7 million years

Cant creationist look in a mirror and ask thereselves why would god create a clear set of stepping stones from primitive man to man AND imagine that! the farther you go back the more primate looking early man becomes OMG LOL :)


Rather than locking horns with you here again let me say this.
MichaelM’s name was given here and offered as some kind of credible person that has something to say about ‘kind’ that was more credible than other creationists.

Looking back on his performance and knowledge I think they were joking.
There is no shame in not knowing every new piece of work that comes out. There is shame in berating persons that do. There is in even more shame in being closed minded to the complete body of research that is out there from your very own evolutionary researchers once it is shown to you. That is ignorance.

Many of you would be biologists are quite ignorant to your own research. Other should be biologists are happy to put their credibility on the line and lie.

This info below is just one example of how screwed up your rankings are. No other species lineage out of all your taxonomic ranks have such a huge difference between the species that correlate to the Genus level and the current modern species. Human lineage is the only lineage where side by side the species look so dissimilar at those ranks. Evolutionists have tried to explain this by some sort of accelerated evolution.

Now, in line with recent genomic testing your researchers see that according to other lineages genetic similarity Chimps should be in the Homo lineage to make it all consistent. I ,as a creationists, say these researchers have gotten themselves into an almighty mess trying to prove an evolutionary relationships re humans and chimps or orangutangs. The reason why there is no consistency when it comes to the Homo line is because Humans were created in the image of God and did not speciate to the degree that other animals did. Humans were created humans, have always been humans, and will only ever be humans.

The Homo line will never have consistency nor resemble the other taxonomic ranking morphologically nor genetically by comparison. In other words, Homo will always be more of a mess than the others.
 
Evolutionary relationship
Further information: History of hominoid taxonomy
http://www.religiousforums.com/wiki/File:Hominoid_taxonomy_7.svg
The taxonomic relationships of Hominoidea
The genus Pan is considered to be part of the subfamily Homininae to which humans also belong. These two species are the closest living evolutionary relatives to humans, sharing a common ancestor with humans six million years ago.[3] Research by Mary-Claire King in 1973 found 99% identical DNA between human beings and chimpanzees,[4] although research since has modified that finding to about 94%[5] commonality, with some of the difference occurring in non-coding DNA. It has been proposed that troglodytes and paniscus belong with sapiens in the genus Homo, rather than in Pan. One of the arguments for this is that other species have been reclassified to belong to the same genus on the basis of less genetic similarity than that between humans and chimpanzees
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No other species lineage out of all your taxonomic ranks have such a huge difference between the species that correlate to the Genus level and the current modern species

It doesnt matter I explained it above, you dont read and comprehend the material we show you.

so what a name does not change anything, your hung up on a label that means nothing as to what really took place
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Paintedwolf...I have pasted research that speaks to florensiensis being queried as belonging to homonini.
So what? All members of Homo are also Homonini... That is what we are trying to explain.

We are Homonini.

Here I'll put it up again: Yes, there was another fossil that was thought to be a cretin but reasearchers do not have a chimp with cretinism so with that fossil they were unsure and still are...that was the Hobbit.
No... they thought it was a human with that disorder. This has been demonstrated to be false based not only on the brain structure but the rest of the skeleton as well as the fact that these features are found in every Hobbit found. While no "normal" humans have been found from the same deposits.

There are other fossils and I expect you know it. Why do you only refer to one specimen.
When have I ever referred to just a single specimen of the Hobbit?

This kind of behaviour is quite concerning coming from a proclaimed biologist with credentials.
What? The fact that you don't seem to pay any attention to what I say?
Or the fact that you seem to misrepresent my position with misinformation like the above?

However that is not the end of the story and there ARE other florensiensis fossils.
Yes and they confirm that the Hobbits are a distinct species within the genus Homo.

Simply saying Wiki is wrong and that the cited research does not exist does not cut it. Neither does refering to only some work.
I never said Wiki was wrong... I said you are confusing tribe, genus and species. You have the problem not wiki.

I really wish you would stop ignoring what I'm saying and then claiming I'm saying something totally different.

Please pay attention... Homonini is a tribe that includes several genus, including Homo and Pan. Homo is a genus that includes the species sapiens and floresiensis.

No one argues that the Hobbits are not in the genus Homo.... the genus Homo is in the tribe Homonini along with one other living genus, Pan. Therefore, no one argues that the Hobbits are not in Homonini.

Is the fact that they say the wrist has similarities with chimps and Australopiths causing your confusion?

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
newhope... can you define "human".

What makes these two "human"
0_64_080317_neanderthal.jpg


But not this one:
homo-erectus-skull-slide_13794_1.jpg

or this one?
a_sediba_skull_large.jpg


What does human mean to you? How does one tell a human from any other ape?

wa:do
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I wanna play lol [to learn]

What makes these two "human"

where the upper vertebrae attaches to the skull, behind the lower jaw bone?

But not this one:

sull sits much more foward on the vertebrae

or this one?

Allthough the apr like sloping face and lower jaw, The skull sits more like man with its vertebrae in the middle

the lower jaw bones look to be spread in the rear to accept the windpipe/throat due to the vertebrae being so close?

when the vertebrae sits in the middle like man its also a distinct patter of bipedalism ????
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I wanna play lol [to learn]

where the upper vertebrae attaches to the skull, behind the lower jaw bone?

sull sits much more foward on the vertebrae.

Allthough the apr like sloping face and lower jaw, The skull sits more like man with its vertebrae in the middle.

the lower jaw bones look to be spread in the rear to accept the windpipe/throat due to the vertebrae being so close?

when the vertebrae sits in the middle like man its also a distinct patter of bipedalism ????
All of these are bipedal. So being able to walk like a human, doesn't make you human to newhope I'm guessing.

wa:do
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Paintedwolf...I have pasted research that speaks to florensiensis being queried as belonging to homonini.

No you haven't. You have pasted research that speaks to "hobbits" being queried as being either Homo floresiensis or as Homo sapiens (who were encepahalic in the example you pasted).

In both cases they are classified as homonini and in both cases they are in the genus Homo (which makes them Human, either modern humans or a separate human species).
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
Defining animals according to "kinds" is, essentially, filtering biodiversity through the intellectual lens of a 5 year old. Sadly, what you see with many of these people, is that there understanding of the animal kingdom hasn't meaningfully progressed since that age.

:yes:

We have molecular evidence and the most appropriate science to use for the job these days...taxonomy is becoming very respectable in the 21st century thanks to molecular biologists like Dawkins.
 
Last edited:

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
In both cases they are classified as homonini and in both cases they are in the genus Homo (which makes them Human, either modern humans or a separate human species).

Precisely.

Neanderthals were also homo and thus human.

We however are Human: Thinker Thinker...the root meaning of Sapiens

Neanderthals are Humans: Boorish and Stupid...which are the related meanings of Neanderthal which is grossly unfair as they had even larger brains than we do. (the name actually comes from a German valley apparently)
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
Newhope, I'm curious, would you consider the fellow on the left "human"?

neanderthal-sapiens2.jpg


How about the one below?

ErectusTurkanaBoy.jpg


If not, why not? How exactly do you (not wikipedia) define "human"?
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
:yes:

We have molecular evidence and the most appropriate science to use for the job these days...taxonomy is becoming very respectable in the 21st century thanks to molecular biologists like Dawkins.
Dawkins? Really? :confused:
Precisely.

Neanderthals were also homo and thus human.

We however are Human: Thinker Thinker...the root meaning of Sapiens

Neanderthals are Humans: Boorish and Stupid...which are the related meanings of Neanderthal which is grossly unfair as they had even larger brains than we do. (the name actually comes from a German valley apparently)
Yes, the Neander Valley is what they're named after.
They had slightly larger brains on average and while infant brains were similar to human infants they didn't have the plasticity or lose the elongated shape like human brains do as they grow older. A rounder brain allowed a massive increase in neural development.
 

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
This thread is a good example of the futility in debating creationists imo. PW wrapped this thing up long ago yet the obstinate responses keep pouring in....
 

newhope101

Active Member
No you haven't. You have pasted research that speaks to "hobbits" being queried as being either Homo floresiensis or as Homo sapiens (who were encepahalic in the example you pasted).

In both cases they are classified as homonini and in both cases they are in the genus Homo (which makes them Human, either modern humans or a separate human species).


How many times do you have to be told that Homonini is the FAMILY tribe ABOVE the genus HOMO. Homonini INCLUDES chimps and bonobos and the HOMO line starts with the HOMO genus. CHIMPS HAVE NOT BEEN PUT IN THE HOMO LINE...YET.... This is BIO101 stuff. Will you all please look up a biology book and differentiate between hominini and homonina? It doesn't even have to be new to reflect this very basic information.

Again for the 6th time...Wiki...Hominini currently comprises the extant species human (the only living member of the genus Homo), bonobo (genus Pan), and chimpanzee (genus Pan); their ancestors; and the extinct lineages of their common ancestor.[1][3]
 

'Hobbit' Was an Iodine-Deficient Human, Not Another Species, New Study Suggests
ScienceDaily (Sep. 28, 2010) — A new paper is set to re-ignite debate over the origins of so-called Homo floresiensis -- the 'hobbit' that some scientists have claimed as a new species of human
Their work confirms the close grouping of H. floresiensis with the hypothyroid cretins, and the clear separation from both modern humans and from chimpanzees. This leads them to conclude that the Liang Bua remains were indeed most likely cretins from a population of unaffected H. sapiens. They have, further, provided a series of predictions for the further testing of the cretin hypothesis.
"This is consistent with recent hypothyroid endemic cretinism throughout Indonesia, including the nearby island of Bali," Professor Oxnard said.

'Hobbit' Skull Study Finds Hobbit Is Not Human
ScienceDaily (Jan. 21, 2009) — In a an analysis of the size, shape and asymmetry of the cranium of Homo floresiensis, Karen Baab, Ph.D., a researcher in the Department of Anatomical Scienes at Stony Brook University, and colleagues conclude that the fossil, found in Indonesia in 2003 and known as the “Hobbit,” is not human.
Dr. Baab recognizes that the controversy as to the evolutionary origins of Homo floresiensis will continue, perhaps without an answer. However, all the evidence that she and colleagues illustrate in their article “Size, shape, and asymmetry in fossil hominins: The status of the LB1cranium based on 3D morphometric analyses,” suggest that Homo floresiensis was most likely the diminutive descendant of a species of archaic Homo.

News from The Scientist 2005
Discovery team members have retreated from their original suggestion that the Hobbits are dwarfed descendants of H. erectus. The latest paper emphasizes the bones' resemblance to Australopithecus, the pre-human hominids who lived in Africa from 1-4 million years ago. For instance, Brown noted that the bones' skeletal proportions, brain size, body size, and some other anatomical features match those seen in Australopithecus afarensis, or "Lucy". "Not similar, but the same," he said.

Hawks agreed that comparison to Australopithecus is not unreasonable. "But if they're Australopithecus, why are they on this island when we've never, ever found any other Australopithecines anywhere else outside of Africa?" he asked. "Not only do we have to get them into Southeast Asia, which would be surprising, but we have to get them on a boat across this water passage.




News in Science
Inside the brain of the hobbit
The researchers first thought the hobbit had dwarfed from H. erectus, which first reached the Indonesian island of Flores about 800,000 years ago, and then became isolated there.
"Now there is another interpretation because some of the traits are so primitive, more primitive than you find in [Homo] erectus," says Morwood.
The researchers now think the hobbit may have come from a small bodied, small brained hominid that pre-dated both it and H. erectus. And that the hobbit branched off the human evolutionary tree earlier from that ancestor than H. erectus.
One possibility is that the hobbit is descended from another forerunner of modern humans H. habilis, which emerged two million years ago.
_____________________________________________________________
So here just looking at these articles one can see that one article suggests florensiensis is descendant from Homo sapiens another suggests they are descendant from archaic Homo another suggests they are Australopithicus.. The point being that deciding if a fossil is a chimp or belongs in the human line at all, does not appear to be as clear cut as one would expect. As a result I have concluded that scientists can make what they wish of fossils. These so called Homo mid species could just as likely be variations of chimp and other non human primates, Researchers have no idea what ancestral chimps or any other primitive non human primate looked like, nor how the environment/adaptation, let alone genetic drift, has impacted on their morphology. Smooth transitions just did not happen, hence staged evolution.

After looking to Wiki “Gene”, I am even less convinced by these percentage similarities the researchers speak to as I do not think they have any clue what genes to count nor how to count similarity. Hence a chimp currently is anywhere from 95-99% similar to humans, depending on whose work you wish to quote.

Researchers can and will report the data in such a way that backs their current claim to fame.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top