Creationists, please provide evidence

[Pegg]

Thanks for the comprehensive timeline, now we're getting somewhere. Is this a generally accepted timeline for creationists or is there some contention amongst creationists about the dates involved?

All of the events in the chronology of the bible are traceable however, they do differ slightly from secular dates by the odd year hear or there.

When you say a 'creationist' do you mean simply a person who believes in creation, or a YEC?
JW's are the former, not the latter.

You have given definitive dates that place the earth as being 6,035 years old + 6 days (God created Adam on the sixth day). Why do creationists state that the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old when you have given me a specific year?

firstly let me be clear.... it is only MAN who is 6,036 years old, not the earth. The opening verse of Genesis shows that the earth was already existing before life was created on it..Vs2 states:"Now the earth proved to be formless and waste" ....the earth was already in existence along with the rest of the universe in Genesis. Genesis isnt explaining its creation but rather its 'preparation for habitation'

Most YEC read the hebrew word for 'day' (YOM) as a literal 24 hour day. However, the hebrew word YOM is used throughout the bible (even in genesis) as an 'unspecified length of time' rather then a specific length of time. An example is found in Genesis 2:4 where we read that all six 'days' are called just 'ONE' day. So the word has many uses in hebrew and we understand that each creative 'day' was really a creative period of a very long period of time....it would be more accurate to call it an 'age' which is one way the hebrew word can be used.

William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies “A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration . . . Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.”

Can you give me an approximation of the number of "kinds" of animal Noah transported on the ark(assuming they are the basis for all life on earth currently)? Please be as specific as possible in the interest of taking this thread past idle banter and insults.

Unfortunately the bible does not provide the specifics of which animals went in.
What is specific is the size of the ark. It measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.) It was nearly equal to the size of the Titanic and with its two floors and three decks had a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space. Now this tells us something about how many animals could have 'fitted' on the ark... but not which animals went in.

What we know is that Noah only took a pair of each 'kind' or 'genus' rather then one of each species... so he would have taken one pair of wolves and from those two wolves, all other wolves and dogs have descended. If we could work out where each of the kinds/genus's begins, then we might have a fairly good idea of how many animals went on the ark.

I'd actually like to do some more research into that question and get back to you.

 

[Pegg]

So, what you're saying is that you only accept some science when it suits you, but reject the other science if it doesn't suit you? What happened to the "same data, different interpretation" slogan? I also strongly encourage you to do some reading on what mtDNA is. Hint: it is not what you think it is. Read a scientific source. Not a creationist strawman.

I trust the word of God over the word of man.

In many cases, science actually confirms the genesis account. But no science is 100% and no scientist would ever claim their dates or interpretation of their data to be 100% either... we should all be aware of that.

 

[Krok]

I trust the word of God over the word of man.

You mean your Bible that's got two versions of creation that contradict each other? Your Bible was written by man. Not by your god.

In many cases, science actually confirms the genesis account. But no science is 100% and no scientist would ever claim their dates or interpretation of their data to be 100% either... we should all be aware of that.

In many cases, science contradicts your Bible. You should be aware of that.

 

[Pegg]

You mean your Bible that's got two versions of creation that contradict each other? Your Bible was written by man. Not by your god.
In many cases, science contradicts your Bible. You should be aware of that.

Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different creation accounts.
Genesis 1 gives an overall account and Genesis 2 focuses on the human creation mentioned in Genesis 1.

 

[Pegg]

Out of curiosity, do you also reject Ohm's Law until the origin of electrons is firmly established?

i guess the difference with ToE and electrons is that electrons do not challenge the existence of God.

 

[Noaidi]

i guess the difference with ToE and electrons is that electrons do not challenge the existence of God.

The electrons in my body do. I'm atheist to a sub-atomic level...

 

[Venatoris]

All of the events in the chronology of the bible are traceable however, they do differ slightly from secular dates by the odd year hear or there.

When you say a 'creationist' do you mean simply a person who believes in creation, or a YEC?
JW's are the former, not the latter.

I was referring to YEC specifically.

firstly let me be clear.... it is only MAN who is 6,036 years old, not the earth. The opening verse of Genesis shows that the earth was already existing before life was created on it..Vs2 states:"Now the earth proved to be formless and waste" ....the earth was already in existence along with the rest of the universe in Genesis. Genesis isnt explaining its creation but rather its 'preparation for habitation'

Most YEC read the hebrew word for 'day' (YOM) as a literal 24 hour day. However, the hebrew word YOM is used throughout the bible (even in genesis) as an 'unspecified length of time' rather then a specific length of time. An example is found in Genesis 2:4 where we read that all six 'days' are called just 'ONE' day. So the word has many uses in hebrew and we understand that each creative 'day' was really a creative period of a very long period of time....it would be more accurate to call it an 'age' which is one way the hebrew word can be used.
William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies “A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration . . . Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.”

If this is the case, how do we know that one "day" in the biblical context is not equivalent to hundreds of millions of years on our calendar?

Unfortunately the bible does not provide the specifics of which animals went in.
What is specific is the size of the ark. It measured 133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m (437 ft 6 in. × 72 ft 11 in. × 43 ft 9 in.) It was nearly equal to the size of the Titanic and with its two floors and three decks had a total of about 8,900 sq m (96,000 sq ft) of space. Now this tells us something about how many animals could have 'fitted' on the ark... but not which animals went in.

What we know is that Noah only took a pair of each 'kind' or 'genus' rather then one of each species... so he would have taken one pair of wolves and from those two wolves, all other wolves and dogs have descended. If we could work out where each of the kinds/genus's begins, then we might have a fairly good idea of how many animals went on the ark.

In the interest of clarity, "kind" cannot be equated with "genus" for the simple fact that they are too specific and numerous to have fit two of each on the ark. Perhaps a broader grouping such as "class" or "phylum" would be more appropriate for your argument.

I'd actually like to do some more research into that question and get back to you.

Looking forward to it.

 

[rusra02]

Not only has not a single piece of evidence been presented, you have yet to even state what your hypothesis is. What is your picture, your story, of exactly HOW God went about creating all the different species we have now? Please be clear and specific. Until you do that, we have no idea what sort of evidence to look for.

Any time now.

Remember.

HOW. HOW. HOW. NOT WHO, HOW.

Did I not refer you to the Book that describes HOW God created living things?
If you're looking for step by step instructions, you are asking for something scientists are unable to fully explain or understand for 'simple' single cell organisms. God explaining HOW he created life to us, would be like a scientist trying to explain how to manufacture an electron microscope to a 3 year old. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
We can, however, see the intelligence, nay, genius, and skill in the form and function of living things. This manifest design genius cannot be explained by the ToE. By way of contrast, Antony Flew, an avowed atheist for 50 years, after a study of DNA, began to express a belief that some intelligence must have been at work in the creation of life. When asked if his new thinking might prove unpopular among scientists, Flew reportedly responded: "That's too bad. My whole life has been guided by the principle... [to] follow the evidence wherever it leads." (quote from The Origin of Life - Five Questions Worth Asking)

 

[Krok]

Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different creation accounts.

Genesis 1 gives an overall account and Genesis 2 focuses on the human creation mentioned in Genesis 1.

Oh yes they are different stories. In the first one your god apparently “creates” water creatures and birds on day 5 and land animals and humankind on day 6. In the second story your god “creates” man first, then animals and birds and then man names them. No helper or partner involved till later. Totally different stories.

 

[Venatoris]

Oh yes they are different stories. In the first one your god apparently “creates” water creatures and birds on day 5 and land animals and humankind on day 6. In the second story your god “creates” man first, then animals and birds and then man names them. No helper or partner involved till later. Totally different stories.

Personally, I have always attributed the chronological discrepancies in Genesis to translation. It seems redundant and contradictory In english but when you haven't read the original source, how can you be sure?
To illustrate my point:Lost in Translation - Cross-language computer translation using Babel Fish

 

[Krok]

Personally, I have always attributed the chronological discrepancies in Genesis to translation. It seems redundant and contradictory In english but when you haven't read the original source, how can you be sure?
To illustrate my point:Lost in Translation - Cross-language computer translation using Babel Fish

OMG. The translators of the Bible were computers? Very funny!:cover: Never thought of that! :run:

 

[Venatoris]

OMG. The translators of the Bible were computers? :run:

No, when you translate anything from one language to another, elements of the initial meaning are lost. The program only illustrates this concept.

 

[Krok]

No, when you translate anything from one language to another, elements of the initial meaning are lost. The program only illustrates this concept.

I agree. Some elements get lost. With careful translation, you can however get the original message of a sentence relatively accurately. For example, in my language, we can say "die kat hardloop onderdeur die tafel". There's no easy English translation for the sentence. It basically means: "the cat runs underneath the table from one end of the table to the other". Not exactly the same, but you can get the meaning. It's definitely not anything like ""the cat jumps onto the table after god poofed it into existence". The same sentence can get translated accurately into languages like Dutch, German and Zulu. Why does the translation of the original Greek or Hebrew is always inaccurate into every other single language of the world in the case of the Bible (when it suits a Bible-thumper)? This does not normally happen to open-minded Christians, only to fundies.

 

[Autodidact]

Krok quote:It really doesn't help to try and have a reasonable conversation with a proven liar who is also a fruitloop.
That’s a cheap pointless unsubstantiated shot. Shut up. Are you 10 years old? Do I call you a liar because you cannot explain abiogenesis. Grow up..
　
Quote Autodidact: Now you're saying family? Which is it, family, genus or species?
Peg, looking at the horse example I’d say the trouble starts with
ORDER and above.
Wiki - Perissodactyl
The odd-toedungulates are browsing and grazing mammals such as horses, tapirs and rhinoceroses whose hooves each feature an odd number of toes. The middle toe on each hoof is also usually larger than its neighbors. Together, odd-toed ungulates form the order Perissodactyla (perissos abundant/excessive + daktulos toes).
They are relatively large and, unlike the ruminant even-toed ungulates (artiodactyls), they have relatively simple stomachs. This is because they are hindgut fermenters, digesting plant cellulose in their intestines rather than in one or more stomachs.
　
Equidae-Family is the first sign of an actual animal in any of the categories. Same as Rhinocerotidae. The Order speaks to morphological things like toes and digestion. This assumes that any species feature evolved only once, which is clearly not the case in relation to vertebrae studies and nervous systems.
With humans prior to homo is homonids and that kind of descriptor that speaks to features and assumes non human primates do not show morphology connected to upright walking.
I’d say kind refers to Family.

O.K. so for example the family muridae, containing mice rats and gerbils would all be one kind? Is that right?

And for another example, there are about 280 different kinds of beetles? Is that correct?

btw, if a "kind" is a family, why not just use the word "family?"

Pegg, do you agree that a "kind" is a biological family?

 

[Autodidact]

No.

6,036 years ago was when God created Adam. The bible's chronology gives us 6,036 years of mankinds history....it does not include the creation of the earth and all life on the planet.

Great, we're making progress. For you, when did God create all living things? Where? How?

By "magic poofing" what I mean is, had I been standing there, I would have suddenly seen two elephants or two mice materialize out of thin air. Is that how God created the living "kinds," aka families, in your view?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, its amazing how evolutionists so easily side step that dilemma.

That's because she's wrong. Tiktaalik never walked on land, and co-existed with many other tetra pods.

I have a book called 'Origins of Mankind' (a science book, not produced by creationists) which has a whole section devoted to the genetic fact that all mankind can be traced back to one woman. Again, its amazing how easily they will skim over the implications of that finding.

Such as what?

 

[Autodidact]

Krok quote:It really doesn't help to try and have a reasonable conversation with a proven liar who is also a fruitloop.
That’s a cheap pointless unsubstantiated shot. Shut up. Are you 10 years old? Do I call you a liar because you cannot explain abiogenesis. Grow up..
　

But newhope: you lied to us. Over and over. You told us you're an agnostic; you're not. You told us you understood and accepted ToE; you don't. You told us you're not a Young Earth Creationist (YEC). You are. You told me that you accept that the evidence supports ToE. Now you deny it. When someone lies and lies, I call them a liar. What do you call it?

I have an idea why, too, but I'm waiting to hear from you first. Why did you present yourself as an agnostic who accepted ToE, when in fact you're a YEC who denies it?

 

[Autodidact]

ok, you can use calculable events in the bible and trace all the way back to Adams creation.

From the creation of Adam in 4026 B.C.E.
to the birth of Seth 130 years
Then to the birth of Enosh 105 years
To the birth of Kenan 90 years
To the birth of Mahalalel 70 years
To the birth of Jared 65 years
To the birth of Enoch 162 years
To the birth of Methuselah 65 years
To the birth of Lamech 187 years
To the birth of Noah 182 years
To the start of the Flood 600 years
Total number of years 1,656 brings us to the year of the flood as
2370 B.C.E.
From the flood in 2370:
427yrs to the validating of the Abrahamic covenant 1943 B.C.E.
430 years to the Exodus from Egypt 1513 B.C.E.
479 years to the start of the temple construction 1034 B.C.E.
37 years to the division of the kingdom 997 B.C.E.
390 years to the desolation of Judah 607 B.C.E.
70 years to the return of the Jews from exile 537 B.C.E.
82 years to the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s walls 455 B.C.E
483 years to the baptism of Jesus 29 C.E.
1981 years to the present 2010 C.E. = 6,035 years


As i've provided no detail for the above events, Im happy to clarify any of them.

1. What about before that?
2. How do you explain the continuous existence of several major world civilizations before, during and after 2370 B.C., with no mention of being under water?

 

[Autodidact]

What we know is that Noah only took a pair of each 'kind' or 'genus' rather then one of each species... so he would have taken one pair of wolves and from those two wolves, all other wolves and dogs have descended. If we could work out where each of the kinds/genus's begins, then we might have a fairly good idea of how many animals went on the ark.

I'd actually like to do some more research into that question and get back to you.

I thought a "kind" was a family? Which is it, family, genus, species, or something else?

Since your whole divergence from ToE is that it's limited by happening only within "kinds," we really need to know what a "kind" is before we can begin to evaluate your claim.

 

[Autodidact]

i guess the difference with ToE and electrons is that electrons do not challenge the existence of God.

NEITHER DOES ToE. It's really important that you grasp that. Our entire discussion of ToE is premised on the assumption that it is HOW God created living things.

I'm really tired of repeating this, and I would appreciate it if I didn't have to do it again.

YOu can't progress in a conversation if you have to go back to the beginning over and over. Thanks.