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Creationists, please provide evidence

Venatoris

Active Member
Biological evolution is fully supported under creationism.
Tell me you're joking. Creationism EMPHATICALLY discounts any relation between humans and other apes.

You have clearly just admitted to using ID.
No, actually I admitted that you aren't quick enough to keep up with the standard set by posters on this forum.

Just like evolution concludes that somehow spontaneous generation happened.
Don't post in this thread until you figure out that evolution says nothing about the creation of life, only the alteration of existing lifeforms over time.

Do you see the relation here? Both creationism and Darwinian evolution rely upon science and philosophy.
NO!!!!! Creationism relies on an unchanging belief and rigid structure, while evolutionary theory is fluid and self correcting when new evidence is taken into account.

Also abiogenesis is a very good possible natural mechanism for the origin of life within the intelligently designed to do so context.
Smartest thing you have said thus far but still not evidence. I think you should browse the forum for a month or two before posting again. Read all the crap that has already been done so you don't bog down threads with things that have already been addressed.
 

Subby

Active Member
Tell me you're joking. Creationism EMPHATICALLY discounts any relation between humans and other apes.

That is a LIMIT of biological evolution. And assumes common ancestry.

No, actually I admitted that you aren't quick enough to keep up with the standard set by posters on this forum.

Don't post in this thread until you figure out that evolution says nothing about the creation of life, only the alteration of existing lifeforms over time.
The alteration of existing lifeforms over time is called biological evolution. If evolution as you say doesn't need creation of life, neither does creationism with God, we all just rely on the science. This is good, because philosophy, or speculation on the origin of life should not be approached in honest science.

Now the question is whether or not the limit of change is extrapolated to conclude massive evolutionary leaps or does one merely rely on the observations?

Creationism relies on the observations of phenotype change.

NO!!!!! Creationism relies on an unchanging belief and rigid structure, while evolutionary theory is fluid and self correcting when new evidence is taken into account.
Creationism fully supports biological evolution.

Smartest thing you have said thus far but still not evidence. I think you should browse the forum for a month or two before posting again. Read all the crap that has already been done so you don't bog down threads with things that have already been addressed.
OK fine, let us not even deal with origin of life issues, namely philosophy let us stick with the observational diversification of species. Now what limit do you see in nature that is equal to that of human to ape change?
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You seem to be interested in abiogenesis. You may wish to start a thread. This one is about evolution. thanks.


*raises her tired fingers yet one more time to type these oft repeated words*

HOW. HOW. HOW, NOT WHO, HOW.

Your first step would be to define what you mean by "kind." Second, reasonable people's beliefs are not evidence. Do you know what "evidence" is?


Great, could you share some with us?

Your first step would be to lay out your hypothesis for HOW, not WHO but HOW God created the various species.

Remember, we agree on the WHO--God. We're looking for the HOW.

How God created the various species: Directly, according to their kinds. Yes, I know what evidence is. Evidence is that, as the Bible says, animals and plants do reproduce according to their kinds. Evidence is the manifest intelligence and engineering skill displayed in life at all levels. Since ToE proponents cannot explain this intelligence, they apparently ignore it, perhaps hoping intelligent people won't take note of what a child can see in nature.

Evidence is that life could not have arisen by chance, which evidence evolutionists try to sidestep by calling this question abiogenesis and stating it does not concern them.

You want the evidence presented to be couched in scientific terms, but the Bible is not a science book. Still, what was recorded in the Bible thousands of years ago is still scientifically valid today.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
make up your mind.
Either all life comes from life or it doesn't. -I suggest you reread my post.
All life comes from other life EXCEPT the source of life. (Psalm 36:9)


1. what is and what is not designed - Everything is designed.
2. how do you tell the difference - No Need
3. Who/what designed god - No one.


1. define "kind" - The Bible does not define kind specifically, other than to say animals or plants of a kind reproduce within that kind.


Well rusra02, the problem here is that you have not presented any hypothesis.
You have merely made unsubstantiated claims and then tried to "support" said unsubstantiated claims with even more unsubstantiated claims.

No, the problem is that many ToE advocates refuse to accept the evidence right under their nose for an intelligent Creator.

If there is really as much proof as you claim there is, why has non of it been presented in this thread?
I mean so far all we have had in this thread is a bunch of unsubstantiated claims being used to support unsubstantiated claims, bold faced lies, misrepresentation of information, quote mining, article mining, etc.

It is easy and unfair to characterize those who disagree with you in the terms above. ToE advocates have no problem with quoting sources that support their world view, but would deny believers in creation the same right. As to bold faced lies and misrepresentation of information, I think ToE supporters would do well to clean their own front steps before accusing others of such things. Outright fraud aside (ala Piltdown man), it seems as if anyone who digs up a bone finds the long-lost hominid link to modern man, only later to be upstaged by the next bone finder.

nice appeal to emotion tactic.

No, simply a reaction to behavior previously exhibited by ToE supporters.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
ID has nothing to do with Genesis kinds, that is philosophy or theology... What ID is, is an inference based in nature.
Actually, it has been determined that ID is nothing more than creationism with the word "god" removed.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
-I suggest you reread my post.
All life comes from other life EXCEPT the source of life. (Psalm 36:9)
So god came from non-life yet everything else has to come from life?
And you do not see the problem with this statement?


Everything is designed.
Then who designed god?

The Bible does not define kind specifically, other than to say animals or plants of a kind reproduce within that kind.
Then the word is rather useless.


No, the problem is that many ToE advocates refuse to accept the evidence right under their nose for an intelligent Creator.
Nice dodge.
Care to present some of this evidence for creation?

It is easy and unfair to characterize those who disagree with you in the terms above. ToE advocates have no problem with quoting sources that support their world view, but would deny believers in creation the same right. As to bold faced lies and misrepresentation of information, I think ToE supporters would do well to clean their own front steps before accusing others of such things. Outright fraud aside (ala Piltdown man), it seems as if anyone who digs up a bone finds the long-lost hominid link to modern man, only later to be upstaged by the next bone finder.

Here you do nothing more than attempt to divert the attention from the fact that you have not presented anything other than unsubstantiated claims.

No, simply a reaction to behavior previously exhibited by ToE supporters.
So much for your alleged moral high ground.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Im not embarrassing myself at all. Where did you get the information from that the Elephas and Loxodonta cannot interbreed?

In fact they have produced hybrid offspring. There is one preserved in the London Natural History Museum...it was bred at the Chester Zoo in 1978 and they named it 'Motty'

From a previous post of mine...

Oops. Loxodonta and Elephas cannot interbreed to produce viable offspring. By your very own definition, different kinds.

(The one successful interbreeding resulted in the calf living only ten days)

Much like Capra and Ovis, whose interbreeding often produce stillborns or short lived offspring. Or do you consider Goats and Sheep to be the same "kind"?
:facepalm:
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
That is a LIMIT of biological evolution. And assumes common ancestry...........(snip)........... Now what limit do you see in nature that is equal to that of human to ape change?


  • What scientific evidence is there of a LIMIT in Biological Evolution? In other words, what evidence is there of a biological mechanism that would prevent Plesiadapis from being the ancestor of both the modern Pan paniscus and Homo sapiens?
  • The Theory of Evolution says nothing about a human to ape change. Nor does it say anything about an ape to human change. All modern primates, including Homo sapiens, have a common ancestor.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
How God created the various species: Directly, according to their kinds. Yes, I know what evidence is. Evidence is that, as the Bible says, animals and plants do reproduce according to their kinds. Evidence is the manifest intelligence and engineering skill displayed in life at all levels. Since ToE proponents cannot explain this intelligence, they apparently ignore it, perhaps hoping intelligent people won't take note of what a child can see in nature.

What intelligence where?
The kind of intelligence that messes up the design of the eye of his "most beloved creature"?
Seriously, it's not as if it's a hard demand. There are plenty of eyes out there without a blindspot.
Or shall we talk about the appendix, a piece of tissue that no longer has any viable function except that it occasionally gets infected and kills us?
Some design I must say...

Evidence is that life could not have arisen by chance, which evidence evolutionists try to sidestep by calling this question abiogenesis and stating it does not concern them.

Well, it doesn't.
As far as Evolution is concerned the first forms of life could have been seeded by aliens, created by some deity or formed in geothermal vents in the sea.
Which of these, if any, is correct, is fundamentally irrelevant to the question of whether Evolution is correct or not.

You want the evidence presented to be couched in scientific terms, but the Bible is not a science book. Still, what was recorded in the Bible thousands of years ago is still scientifically valid today.

Even the part where bats are considered to be birds?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
No. What im saying is that biologists have blurred the lines by classifying organisms into increasingly inclusive groups. By the way they have defined animals, they've made it impossible for a 'genesis kind' to fit in anywhere without it appearing incorrect.
You can't define your term and it's someone else's fault?

You don't have to use those terms at all if you don't want to. Just give us a definition (not examples, a definition) that works and--this is key--stick to one definition.

If you don't think the term "genus" makes sense, why did you choose it as the one and only word you wanted to define your term? Are you now retracting that?

If it appears incorrect its because in biologic terminology, a species applies to any group of interfertile animals (or plants) but at the same time, many of these species are put into a genus on their own rather then grouped together as a Genesis kind would do. This is why its confusing because in a genesis Kind there could be many such species or varieties within a single genre.
You realize that you're just spouting gibberish at this point? If you don't like the biological terms, don't use them. I think it's best if you don't, because I don't think you have a firm grasp on what they mean.

I submit that is not your problem at all. Your problem is that your hypothesis is false, not just false but impossible. You need to have everything fit into a small wooden boat, and then dramatically expand into millions of species all over the world. The way YECs try to finesse this is to have the term mean a broad grouping on the ark, and then a narrow category now, to hide this problem.

There is no definition that works, because the scenario is impossible. Either the ark was the size of Australia, or you would have to see dramatic, constant, rapid evolution of new species, which is not observed and is in fact impossible.

And that is why we try to pin down your definition, in order to make this clear.

each of these belong to one genesis kind:

elephant_evo.jpeg

On what basis do you say that? How do you know?
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Here is what I understand a genesis Kind to be.

each of these belong to a genesis kind:



elephant_evo.jpeg

The Illustration comes from a Scientific Journal on Evolutionary Biology.
The article is on the chronology of Elephant evolution . PLoS Biology: Proboscidean Mitogenomics: Chronology and Mode of Elephant Evolution Using Mastodon as Outgroup. (I recommend the article, good reading.)
Notice the dates range from 34 Million Years Ago to .01 MYA (10,000 years ago)
All the data in the illustration supports Biological Evolution and explicitly refutes a literal Biblical Creation.

Not only that, but the illustration shows four separate genera (your definition of a Biblical kind) for what you also claim is one single kind.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Here is what I understand a genesis Kind to be.

each of these belong to a genesis kind:
dog_history_tree.jpg

Now this Illustration comes from a site that will do DNA swipes on your dog to test for different breeds.

What is missing, understandably since they only focus on domestic dogs, are Jackals, Dingos and Coyotes. Who along with Wolf and Dog varieties belong to the genus Canis.

BTW, were you aware that Mitochondrial DNA, archeological and fossil evidence puts the origins of the Domestic dog at least 15,000 years ago? Long before any claimed Biblical flood or even most estimates of Biblical creation.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
So I am a supporter of supernatural origin of life. I see complex biological systems that constitute life and determine eventually something had to create/design life to be governed this way by natural processes. Being a creationist I make the conclusion based on an ID inference totally based within natural observations of daily life. The opposite view is that strict naturalistic processes spontaneously generated life from non-life, i.e. abiogenesis. No where in nature is abiogenesis happening? Nowhere. Yet we see ID all around us.
HOW? By what mechanism do you propose what something did what to create/design what? When? Where?

Both, Darwinian evolution and creationism, rely on observational science, namely biological evolution.
No, they don't. But we might be able to discuss this better if you clarified a little exactly what you mean by "creationism."
But both also rely on philosophy underpinning their interpretation of those observations.
Well, evolution relies on the same philosophy as all of science. Do you?
Creationists fully support, speciation, natural selection, mutations, environmental pressures, etc as mechanisms of biological diversity from the origin of life that was designed.
Some do, some don't. Some don't until you point out to them that they do. Lacking the scientific method, they have no way to achieve consensus on this or any other points. For example, in this thread, some argue for an earth around 10,000 years old, and some for 4.56 billion. Some think a "kind" is a genus, some a species, some a family, some something to do with capacity to reproduce, and most waver between those definitions.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
ID has nothing to do with Genesis kinds, that is philosophy or theology... What ID is, is an inference based in nature.

Well, is it supported by evidence? If so, could you please state your hypothesis specifically, so we can think about what that evidence should be? Thanks.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
So at what level on the biological classification system would you put a genesis kind?

Species ?
Genus ?
Family ?
Order ?
Class ?
Phylum
Kingdom

None. It's a meaningless, useless, undefined term that has no bearing on reality, which is why I wouldn't use it.

I guess for your purposes I would say it means something like Family when they get on the ark, and species now. In other words, it's nothing but a screen for a lie.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The opposite view is that strict naturalistic processes spontaneously generated life from non-life, i.e. abiogenesis. No where in nature is abiogenesis happening? Nowhere. Yet we see ID all around us.

We have a word for this view. It is called atheism. It is a religious or philosophical position, not a scientific one. This thread is about science. If you want to discuss atheism, you may want to start a thread.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Biological evolution is fully supported under creationism.
That depends on what you mean by "creationism." If you mean Young Earth Creationism, their usual position is that evolution is impossible, and has been going on rapidly since "the flood." Yes, I realize this position is contradictory.

Most creationists virulently deny the Theory of Evolution, until it is pointed out to them that they not only embrace it, but espouse it at a rate beyond what ToE itself posits.

You have clearly just admitted to using ID. Therefore, as a creationist, the evidence is within nature all around you. This ID inference is used within nature to conclude that the origin of life was also intelligently designed. Just like evolution concludes that somehow spontaneous generation happened.
ToE concludes nothing of the kind. You may want to read up on it before you try to discuss it.

Do you see the relation here? Both creationism and Darwinian evolution rely upon science and philosophy.
Evolution relies on philosophy to the same degree that relativity, atomic theory, gravity and heliocentrism do. Do you rely on that philosophy?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
. No where in nature is abiogenesis happening? Nowhere.
Correct. The conditions necessary for abiogenesis no longer exist on earth, as far as we know. However biochemists have been able to recreate some of those conditions to produce the building blocks of life in labs.

Yet we see ID all around us.
Really? Have you seen something in nature while it was actually being designed? Can you show me where ID is being reproduced in labs?
Or are you just seeing life as it is and assuming ID?
 
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