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Creationists, please provide evidence

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
That is a LIMIT of biological evolution.
Really? Why? What? How do you know?
And assumes common ancestry.
Concludes. Not assumes, concludes--the opposite of assumes.

The alteration of existing lifeforms over time is called biological evolution. If evolution as you say doesn't need creation of life, neither does creationism with God, we all just rely on the science. This is good, because philosophy, or speculation on the origin of life should not be approached in honest science.
Wow, you're really mushing up a lot of separate stuff here. ToE needs life to exist, but it doesn't make any difference how it got here. Research into that question is science, just as much as any other question about the natural world, it's just not settled yet. Unlike evolution. And I don't know what you mean by "creationism with God."

Now the question is whether or not the limit of change is extrapolated to conclude massive evolutionary leaps or does one merely rely on the observations?
I'm sorry, again I'm not grasping what you're trying to say. Could you rephrase? In any case, the way science works is: observation, extrapolation, prediction, confirmation (or falsification.) You need both.

Creationism relies on the observations of phenotype change.
What? In what way?

Creationism fully supports biological evolution.
Please tell us how you are using the word "creationism." Thanks.

OK fine, let us not even deal with origin of life issues, namely philosophy let us stick with the observational diversification of species. Now what limit do you see in nature that is equal to that of human to ape change?
None.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
How God created the various species: Directly, according to their kinds.
Sorry, I don't know what this means. Is this the magic poofing hypothesis? Had I been there, would I have seen two elephants magically appear out of thin air?
Yes, I know what evidence is.
Great, got any?
Evidence is that, as the Bible says, animals and plants do reproduce according to their kinds.
Could you tell us what you mean by "kind?"
Evidence is the manifest intelligence and engineering skill displayed in life at all levels.
No, that's not what we mean by evidence.
Since ToE proponents cannot explain this intelligence, they apparently ignore it, perhaps hoping intelligent people won't take note of what a child can see in nature.
Are you confusing a scientific theory with atheism? Maybe you've forgotten that we all agree that a great intelligence created all things, and what we're arguing about is how. "ToE proponents" means Biologists, and people who accept science.

Evidence is that life could not have arisen by chance, which evidence evolutionists try to sidestep by calling this question abiogenesis and stating it does not concern them.
It is abiogenesis, rusra, that's what that is called. It concerns me, we just haven't solved it yet. It's not part of ToE, which is a scientific theory about something very specific. Tell you what, I'll just agree that your God magically created life by poofing, o.k.? Now let's talk about the evolution (or creation) of various species.

You want the evidence presented to be couched in scientific terms, but the Bible is not a science book. Still, what was recorded in the Bible thousands of years ago is still scientifically valid today.
See any contradiction there? If you don't want to do science or talk about science, fine--get out of science. Now we're both happy. But if you want to claim to do science, and be taught as science, you have to do science. You don't get to invent stuff, call it science, and not do the actual science. We have a word for that. We call it cheating.
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
Alma 30:48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

You know what sign seekers get? Signs. You should read Korihor's story. Poor, poor Korihor.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Alma 30:48 Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I say also, that ye do not know that there is a God; and except ye show me a sign, I will not believe.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you have any idea what this thread is about? *hint* It's not about God.
 

Subby

Active Member
Really? Why? What? How do you know? Concludes. Not assumes, concludes--the opposite of assumes.

The limit is phenotype change. Read the peer-reviewed articles. Philosophical assumption is then used to assume that spontaneously generated abiogenesis happened sometime in the distant past, or that the phenotype change we all observe sometime in the distant past actually wasn't just phenotype change, but even greater change. You are basing conclusions regarding the limit of biological evolution not on observation but philosophy.

Wow, you're really mushing up a lot of separate stuff here. ToE needs life to exist, but it doesn't make any difference how it got here. Research into that question is science, just as much as any other question about the natural world, it's just not settled yet. Unlike evolution. And I don't know what you mean by "creationism with God."
No I am not mushing up anything. I separate philosophy and science.

Abiogenesis happens for Darwinian origin of life. God is the origin of life within creationism. Each are not to be talked about because if abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution, then neither does God have to be involved for creationism. Its called equal treatment and conducting science without a double-standard.

I'm sorry, again I'm not grasping what you're trying to say. Could you rephrase? In any case, the way science works is: observation, extrapolation, prediction, confirmation (or falsification.) You need both.
No, science has nothing to do with philosophical extrapolation that predicts something not in accordance with known observation. Namely anything above phenotype change.

What? In what way?

Please tell us how you are using the word "creationism." Thanks.

None.
I have already explained creationism.
 
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Subby

Active Member
Correct. The conditions necessary for abiogenesis no longer exist on earth, as far as we know. However biochemists have been able to recreate some of those conditions to produce the building blocks of life in labs.

Right all these shows is ID in effect. Everything screams ID. Yet somehow in Darwinian evolution, biology has to be random spontaneously generated order into life, etc, etc.

Really? Have you seen something in nature while it was actually being designed? Can you show me where ID is being reproduced in labs?
Or are you just seeing life as it is and assuming ID?
Look all around, many, many things in nature are intelligently designed. Houses, cars, etc, etc. Why would biology be any different?
 

DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
Right all these shows is ID in effect. Everything screams ID. Yet somehow in Darwinian evolution, biology has to be random spontaneously generated order into life, etc, etc.

Please explain how leaving chemicals in controlled conditions and not doing anything remotely intelligent to affect them and their polymerization into complex molecules screams 'intelligent design'. It screams 'formation without recourse to Goddunnit'.

Furthermore, Darwinian evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. It merely holds that given an original prokaryote, all living organisms could have descended through evolution; variation, selection and replication.

Look all around, many, many things in nature are intelligently designed. Houses, cars, etc, etc. Why would biology be any different?

You do realize that houses and cars are not actually natural?

Biology is different, because cars and houses are not subject to replication, variation and selection. If cars could give birth to baby cars which could vary due to mutation, and there was a selection mechanism to 'pick' out a certain mutation as an advantage, then cars would evolve. But they can't, so they don't.
 

Subby

Active Member
Please explain how leaving chemicals in controlled conditions and not doing anything remotely intelligent to affect them and their polymerization into complex molecules screams 'intelligent design'. It screams 'formation without recourse to Goddunnit'.

They designed it to happen. Point blank. I never said God, I said the scientists ID'd it. If you wanna name the designer you are getting into philosophy/theology.

Furthermore, Darwinian evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. It merely holds that given an original prokaryote, all living organisms could have descended through evolution; variation, selection and replication.
If that's the case, then quit saying God has something to do with the origin of life for creationism. Leave the origin of life out of it, and lets deal with scientific observations of phenotype expression change.

You do realize that houses and cars are not actually natural?

Biology is different, because cars and houses are not subject to replication, variation and selection. If cars could give birth to baby cars which could vary due to mutation, and there was a selection mechanism to 'pick' out a certain mutation as an advantage, then cars would evolve. But they can't, so they don't.
No, no, no... We are not dealing with the origin of life, just diversification of that life. ID is in an inference of design, in nature. The fact you state the mechanisms of biological evolution and such, seems to me even greater design must of been placed within nature to sustain life.
 
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tomato1236

Ninja Master
What on earth are you talking about? Do you have any idea what this thread is about? *hint* It's not about God.

I understand that. The thread is about looking for a sign that the earth was created *poof*. Creationism is based on belief in God. If you're looking for a sign that the earth was created by somebody, you might as well be looking for a sign that there's a God.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Subby, I agree. All known beneficial mutations affect only an organisms biochemistry. Unfortunately all known morphological mutations are harmful. Evolutionists say they are clear about their term species, despite the species problem. Perhaps you'd better ask which one of the CLEAR species category they are using. Usually they use the biological/isolation that is confused by the fact that a dog and wolf (different species) can sucessfully mate as well as other so caled separate species.(Yeah, I know..but this is the so called 'scientific' confusion you are entering here)

Wiki
Typological species A group of organisms in which individuals are members of the species if they sufficiently conform to certain fixed properties or "rights of passage". The clusters of variations or phenotypes within specimens (i.e. longer or shorter tails) would differentiate the species. This method was used as a "classical" method of determining species, such as with Linnaeus early in evolutionary theory. However, we now know that different phenotypes do not always constitute different species (e.g.: a 4-winged Drosophila born to a 2-winged mother is not a different species). Species named in this manner are called morphospecies[11]

Morphological species A population or group of populations that differs morphologically from other populations. For example, we can distinguish between a chicken and a duck because they have different shaped bills and the duck has webbed feet. Species have been defined in this way since well before the beginning of recorded history. This species concept is highly criticized because more recent genetic data reveal that genetically distinct populations may look very similar and, contrarily, large morphological differences sometimes exist between very closely related populations. Nonetheless, most species known have been described solely from morphology.

Biological / Isolation species A set of actually or potentially interbreeding populations. This is generally a useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but more problematic for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. The results of breeding experiments done in artificial conditions may or may not reflect what would happen if the same organisms encountered each other in the wild, making it difficult to gauge whether or not the results of such experiments are meaningful in reference to natural populations.

Biological / reproductive species Two organisms that are able to reproduce naturally to produce fertile offspring of both sexes. Organisms that can reproduce but almost always make infertile hybrids of at least one sex, such as a mule, hinny or F1 male cattalo are not considered to be the same species.

Recognition speciesbased on shared reproductive systems, including mating behavior. The Recognition concept of species has been introduced by Hugh E. H. Paterson.

Mate-recognition species A group of organisms that are known to recognize one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually. Unlike the isolation species concept, it focuses specifically on pre-mating reproductive isolation.

Evolutionary / Darwinian species A group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, some members may diverge from the main population and evolve into a subspecies, a process that eventually will lead to the formation of a new full species if isolation (geographical or ecological) is maintained.

Phylogenetic (Cladistic)[verification needed] A group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, members may diverge from one another: when such a divergence becomes sufficiently clear, the two populations are regarded as separate species. This differs from evolutionary species in that the parent species goes extinct taxonomically when a new species evolve, the mother and daughter populations now forming two new species. Subspecies as such are not recognized under this approach; either a population is a phylogenetic species or it is not taxonomically distinguishable.

Ecological speciesA set of organisms adapted to a particular set of resources, called a niche, in the environment. According to this concept, populations form the discrete phonetic clusters that we recognize as species because the ecological and evolutionary processes controlling how resources are divided up tend to produce those clusters.

Genetic species based on similarity of DNA of individuals or populations. Techniques to compare similarity of DNA include DNA-DNA hybridization, and genetic fingerprinting (or DNA barcoding).

Phenetic speciesbased on phenotypes.[verification needed]

Microspecies Species that reproduce without meiosis or fertilization so that each generation is genetically identical to the previous generation. See also apomixis.

Cohesion species Most inclusive population of individuals having the potential for phenotypic cohesion through intrinsic cohesion mechanisms. This is an expansion of the mate-recognition species concept to allow for post-mating isolation mechanisms; no matter whether populations can hybridize successfully, they are still distinct cohesion species if the amount of hybridization is insufficient to completely mix their respective gene pools.

Evolutionarily Significant Unit (ESU) An evolutionarily significant unit is a population of organisms that is considered distinct for purposes of conservation. Often referred to as a species or a wildlife species, an ESU also has several possible definitions, which coincide with definitions of species.

In practice, these definitions often coincide, and the differences between them are more a matter of emphasis than of outright contradiction. Nevertheless, no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgment. Given the complexity of life, some have argued that such an objective definition is in all likelihood impossible, and biologists should settle for the most practical definition.

For most vertebrates, this is the biological species concept (BSC), and to a lesser extent (or for different purposes) the phylogenetic species concept (PSC). Many BSC subspecies are considered species under the PSC; the difference between the BSC and the PSC can be summed up insofar as that the BSC defines a species as a consequence of manifest evolutionary history, while the PSC defines a species as a consequence of manifest evolutionary potential. Thus, a PSC species is "made" as soon as an evolutionary lineage has started to separate, while a BSC species starts to exist only when the lineage separation is complete. Accordingly, there can be considerable conflict between alternative classifications based upon the PSC versus BSC, as they differ completely in their treatment of taxa that would be considered subspecies under the latter model (e.g., the numerous subspecies of honey bees).

(red highlight mine) Good luck talking science with these guys!!!!
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
newhope,

In all the excitement, I think you may have missed my questions for you in these posts:

Are you suggesting that this event was caused by Noah's flood? If so, it doesn't really mesh up:

- it should have an extinction rate of much more than 50% - every species but one in each "kind" would have died out.

- no genera should have disappeared (assuming that genus is something close to "kind")

Also, the flood extinction would be worldwide. Do we see mass extinctions in other areas at the same date?

IOW, some experts in the field say that while evolution definitely happened, these particular species may have evolved in a slightly different way than was originally assumed.

How does this help your case that evolution did not happen?

And, more relevant to the thread, how do you make the leap from there to the case that Biblical creationism happened?

Do you think you could respond to them now?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
They designed it to happen. Point blank. I never said God, I said the scientists ID'd it. If you wanna name the designer you are getting into philosophy/theology.
How do you design something you don't intend? Nobody involved in that experiment knew whether or not it would work.
 

Subby

Active Member
How do you design something you don't intend? Nobody involved in that experiment knew whether or not it would work.

You think because I setup drums a guitar, etc in a house and turn it into a concert hall, that the designer of that house intended that, or cannot be the designer still? Of course not, the design facilitates many outcomes.
 
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newhope101

Active Member
9_10ths_penguin. Thanks for the reminder. You may have read my info re inaccurate dating methods. I see evidence of mega floods and mass extinctions. It's a matter dating etc.

There's the Younger Dryas that researchers are confused about.

But no penguin I cannot provide a complete volume of evidence. If I could I'd be off to make a claim to fame instead of being here arguing. What I do think is that science is still working alot out.

Ancient Flood Disrupted Ocean Circulation And Triggered Climate Cooling

ScienceDaily (Dec. 17, 2007) — As the giant North American ice sheets melted an enormous pool of freshwater, many times larger than all of the Great Lakes, formed behind them. About 8400 years ago this pool of freshwater burst free and flooded the North Atlantic. About the same time, a sharp century long cold spell is observed around the North Atlantic and other areas. Researchers have often speculated that the cooling was the result of changes in ocean circulation triggered by this freshwater flood. The sudden addition of so much freshwater would have curtailed (suppressed) the sinking of deep water in the North Atlantic and as a consequence less warm water would be pulled north in the Gulf stream.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
9_10ths_penguin. Thanks for the reminder.
No problem.


You may have read my info re inaccurate dating methods. I see evidence of mega floods and mass extinctions. It's a matter dating etc.

There's the Younger Dryas that researchers are confused about.

But no penguin I cannot provide a complete volume of evidence. If I could I'd be off to make a claim to fame instead of being here arguing. What I do think is that science is still working alot out.
I'm not asking you to provide a complete volume of evidence. I'm asking you to explain what you meant when you posted those articles before. If you're arguing for a worldwide flood a la Noah, then the first article I responded to is problematic. If you're arguing that evolution is impossible, then the second article suggests that you're wrong.

Really, I'm just trying to figure out how those two articles you presented work into whatever argument you're presenting here.
Ancient Flood Disrupted Ocean Circulation And Triggered Climate Cooling

ScienceDaily (Dec. 17, 2007) — As the giant North American ice sheets melted an enormous pool of freshwater, many times larger than all of the Great Lakes, formed behind them. About 8400 years ago this pool of freshwater burst free and flooded the North Atlantic. About the same time, a sharp century long cold spell is observed around the North Atlantic and other areas. Researchers have often speculated that the cooling was the result of changes in ocean circulation triggered by this freshwater flood. The sudden addition of so much freshwater would have curtailed (suppressed) the sinking of deep water in the North Atlantic and as a consequence less warm water would be pulled north in the Gulf stream.
I don't see how this is relevant. Yes, as the glaciers receded across what's now the Great Lakes, this allowed a large volume of water to flow into the Atlantic in a relatively short (in geologic terms) period of time. How does play into your argument?
 

newhope101

Active Member
I don't have an argument Penguin. I'm butting out of this really. However, I am re evaluating my religious stance to 'creationist', not young earth though.

For me, we are here because of some natural process, ie TOE, Alien life had something to do with it (which begs the original question re first life) or some entity produced causation. In other words we would not be here if some entity did not intervene somehow. I am satisfied that some entity intervened. Most call that entity God.

Toe is too piecemeal. It's too all over the place. Perhaps we are here through a natural process but I do not think TOE explains it. I feel that scientists also see this and are looking for other explanations or additional explanations ie memes etc.

I feel that if a natural process produced the first living cell, then it should have happened in more than one case, anyway. To ponder that this process only happened to produce life once is inconcievable to me. It would have been more believeable if a cluster of cells had formed. I think the reason all genomic research points to single cell ancestry is because they are misinterpreting the data. This is easier to believe than only one cell came to life in the eons of time. In fact, I feel that if it were interpreted correctly it would point to ancestry to an initial kind, and that the similarity amongst all species is design, rather than common ancesry to a single cell.

I do not see natural selection as a method to produce different kinds in the way of sensibility, without all the species rhetoric eg chimp to human, bird to dinosaur, rather than wolf to dog or primrose to some other flower, can produce true species change as in common rational understanding.

However, regardless of not being able to come up with a solid case for a creative event I feel recent genomic testing more supports intelligent design or creation than it does ToE.

"All known beneficial mutations affect only an organisms biochemistry. Unfortunately all known morphological mutations are harmful. Evolutionists say they are clear about their term species, despite the species problem. Perhaps you'd better ask which one of the CLEAR species category they are using. Usually they use the biological/isolation that is confused by the fact that a dog and wolf (different species) can sucessfully mate as well as other so called separate species."

Basicaly I feel ToE is truly straw grabbing. The concept of species used to show speciation and the proof of macroevolution appears to be rubbish to me. They are all cases of microevolution. Just because a researcher gives them a different name means little. In other words, even if you took a wolf and made a domestic dog out of it in a lab setting it is still one kind of animal, they can still mate sucessfully, As the article I posted states no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgment."

As for mid species fossil evidence. Not sure. With humans could all be non human primates above sapiens, maybe neanderthal is human, maybe most are human, after all control of fire needs cognitive ability, and it's been found as far back as 3.6 million years. Also morphology is very connected to environment and diet, for all primates. Maybe Neanderthal are nephelim. I feel much the same about other mid species fossil evidence. Just because some features are shared with another kind does not necessarily indicate ancestry and there is research to support that assertion. This evidence on its own is insufficient. Genomic data often does not support the fossil evidence in relation to both ancestry and dating.

It is pointless talking about kinds, which is a favourite topic here. The info on arch, all the stuff I have read while being here and contradictory research on almost every point of evidence for ToE, the use of the species concept being thwarted to suit the various arguments, leads me to truly believe researchers are grabbing at straws to uphold ToE.

As my other post says "Good luck talking science on RF". Won't happen. Evolutionists require something solid as evidence to debate before anyone can enter into a debate of substantial veracity. It is imposible arguing with fluffy, vague concepts. I'm done!
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Right all these shows is ID in effect. Everything screams ID. Yet somehow in Darwinian evolution, biology has to be random spontaneously generated order into life, etc, etc.
Exactly how does this show ID in effect? There was no design in the laboratory, only a recreation of conditions thought to be present during the original abiogenesis.
This showed that abiogenesis was possible. What it did not show was ID in action.
In fact, there has yet to be any scientific evidence of ID.
The human has the one of the poorest eyes in nature, who would deliberately design that? We have week lower backs and our knees are prone to injury due to our upright stance. Who would deliberately design that?

Look all around, many, many things in nature are intelligently designed. Houses, cars, etc, etc. Why would biology be any different?
Architecture and mechanical engineering are not biology.
To even compare them shows a very weak understanding of biology.
 

Subby

Active Member
Exactly how does this show ID in effect? There was no design in the laboratory, only a recreation of conditions thought to be present during the original abiogenesis.

This showed that abiogenesis was possible. What it did not show was ID in action.
In fact, there has yet to be any scientific evidence of ID.
The human has the one of the poorest eyes in nature, who would deliberately design that? We have week lower backs and our knees are prone to injury due to our upright stance. Who would deliberately design that?

Are you seriously going to say that the recreation of conditions within experiment guidelines happened without ID? It indeed showed abiogenesis was possible, through ID. We do not see spontaneously generating life as abiogenesis would posit, rather the only way to have abiogenesis is if an intelligent mind made it so. That is IF you are ONLY using natural observations and deduction.

If you would like to know the vastly more specific philosophy of mine rather then your empty materialistic/naturalistic philosophy, sure. Creationism would follow Biblical history of a fallen world submissive to sin that degrades overall original optimal design. If just following the scientific observations, without philosophy, then well its just how it is now isn't it.

Architecture and mechanical engineering are not biology.
To even compare them shows a very weak understanding of biology.
You do realize that we are still referring to the origin of life debate even though I was told not to engage in that as it had nothing to do with evolution etc, etc... Either way, regarding the origin of life, all around us we see ID, where do we see all around us spontaneously generating things as abiogenesis without ID would post? We see it NOWHERE. Therefore there is a foundation regarding the ID of biology as well, again meanwhile Darwinian evolution as it is taught today posits ideas regarding origin of life NOT found ANYWHERE readily unless intelligently designed to do so.

It is very dishonest of science today to practice in such ways, instead raw data should be derived and reported WITHOUT philosophical conclusion or bias unless stated and highlighted as the source of conclusions.
 
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evolved yet?

A Young Evolutionist
Again it comes back to what they define as a 'species'

some species of dog are unable to breed with anther species of dog for anatomical reasons... but they are still dogs

there may be genetic reasons which prevent fertilization in some but not others. I think there is much more research needed to be done before any conclusions are drawn.
GREAT%20DANE.jpg

Part Great Dane, part pug.
 
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