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Creationists, please provide evidence

What characteristics would something that isn't designed have?

I have no idea as every thing in the known universe is designed.

I'm sorry, but I had to chuckle at this. It is true, quantum mechanics allows you to pull matter (energy) from nowhere, as long as it exists for a very short amount of time (very short). I'm a second year college student and I know that. Quantum mechanics is accepted. Period. No ifs ands or buts.
The theories that postulate the universe always existed aren't, at least to my knowledge, but the theory that our universe came from nothing (zero energy) is well known, and accepted by scientists.

There are all sorts of contentions as to the implications, interpretations, and opinions of how exactly it is that quantum mechanics apply to observable reality. That being said, for a fledgling science it has amazing potentials. As for pulling matter from nowhere, I would be curious to know if these are only paper calculations or if they are observable occurrences? Can you elaborate on this?
The last I heard, Zero Point Energy still required a catalyst.

No, it's like this:

In order to demonstrate that something was created you'd have to be able to show how it can be differentiated from something that is not created. Because you deny the possibility that anything is not created you also in effect deny the possibility of finding a way to differentiate created from un-created. Thus by extension you deny the existence of any way to prove anything is created.

That all things are created is simply an axiom; the starting point for demonstrating creationism. As much as the people in this thread would like to believe it, we are not debating whether or not all things are created rather, we are debating whether or not there is evidence for creationism. That all things are created is basic reality. For some reason that is a hard truth to grasp for a small minority of people on this planet.

:facepalm:

Rather than patronize me, perhaps you'd care to explain what scientifically viable and objectively verifiable means we have for demonstrating that everything in existence was specifically created?

Pick any thing in the known universe you would like and I will demonstrate "scientifically" how it was created into existence. Pick any thing you like, it does not matter. Maybe while I am doing that you could explain to me how a thing could come into existence without being created? I would be curious to know.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
There are all sorts of contentions as to the implications, interpretations, and opinions of how exactly it is that quantum mechanics apply to observable reality. That being said, for a fledgling science it has amazing potentials.

The science itself is accepted. How it can, will and should be used is a completely different issue, because they all rely on the implications of the science, and those aren't all figured out yet.

As for pulling matter from nowhere, I would be curious to know if these are only paper calculations or if they are observable occurrences? Can you elaborate on this?

Of course. First, you have to understand that energy is the only way to affect matter. Be it other matter, or a force, energy is defined as the ability to change matter.
That being said, how do the protons in a nucleus stay together? They are all positive, so electrical forces should force them away from each other. There must be forces within the nucleus that keep them together. Those don't work via electrical and magnetic fields, so how do they work?

Well, we have these particles (or matter) that 'communicate' these forces to and from each proton. The force that these particles need to impart on the protons to keep them together is calculable, and that energy is the exact amount necessary for our new particles to have (otherwise our protons would be flying apart(less energy) or crushed together(more energy)).

So we have a particle that has the exact force to counter the electrical force one proton exerts on another, and in order for that particle to impart that force on the protons, it needs to travel from one proton to another. We also know that these particles travel at the speed of light. And, we know that matter and energy are equivalent (from e=m*c squared).

The last thing we need to take into account is the fact that the particles are traveling at the speed of light, so we must take relativity into account. When you do that, the energy calculation gains a delta t term (change in time) in the denominator. Because of that, you can pull energy from nothing as long as that energy exists for a very, very, very (10 to the negative 10+) short time. And that's okay because the size of the nucleus is very very small, and the particle is traveling very fast.

And yes, these particles have been observed in countless experiments in the particle accelerator in FermiLabs in Chicago and will be observed in the LHC when the tests start going.
And actually, quantum mechanics proved the existence of these particles before they were observed, and with pinpoint accuracy.

That's a lot, and I've only gotten the theory of this. I may be a little off on the details, but I know that this stuff has been proven, in the math itself as well as experiments.

The last I heard, Zero Point Energy still required a catalyst.

The catalyst, as far as I understand it, is simple quantum fluctuations. Also, I'm pretty sure that this is still a theory, one that relies on a flat universe, which has been only tentatively accepted by the scientific community.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
When a Fact Is Not a Fact
A fact is something that exists beyond question. It is an actuality, an objective reality. It is established by solid evidence.
A theory is something unproved but at times assumed true for the sake of argument. It has yet to be proved as factual. Nonetheless, sometimes something is declared to be a fact that is only a theory.
The theory of organic evolution falls into this category.

You need to read this: Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, Evolution, by it's textbook definition of allele changes over time, is an observable fact. So, Evolution is BOTH a (scientific) Theory, as well as a fact.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
That all things are created is simply an axiom; the starting point for demonstrating creationism. As much as the people in this thread would like to believe it, we are not debating whether or not all things are created rather, we are debating whether or not there is evidence for creationism. That all things are created is basic reality. For some reason that is a hard truth to grasp for a small minority of people on this planet.

So my question is who/what created the creator?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
The creator obviously created itself.

That would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

Try again.

To quote Arthur Eddington:
“If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell’s equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.”

Now, your theory even violates the FIRST law of thermodynamics... tsk, tsk, tsk...
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
...There isn't one. I'm serious: I can stack infinite ordinals till the Big Crunch, and there'll still be a bigger one. There is no "biggest number", and, since I can put my stack of bigger numbers under 1, there's no smallest fraction either. And while it is true that infinity has no beginning or end, there is always a bigger infinity.
 

Gunfingers

Happiness Incarnate
Apparently the limit of 1/x as x->infinity is God? And the limit of x as x->infinity is also God? That would make God both 0 and infinity. If we assume that those statements are true if we plug in -infinity for infinity then god is also -infinity. I guess with them being so into the trinity thing it'd seem logical to them...
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
Actually, if we keep going, a divide by zero is God. :D

and you know what happens when you divide by zero...

BlackHole.jpg
 
Life. Okay, Herman, add 'matter' to the list.

Matter is an easy one so I will start with that. First, we need to clarify that the Law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It says nothing about matter. I should also point out that this aspect of the Law only applies to energy within the universe. We can only speculate what is beyond the universe. If we can get past the basic reality that all things are created, then I can move on to my speculations, which are much more easily contested. Not to mention being what the thread is all about. Having said that, matter is not created until after electrons create atoms and so forth until eventually, about .00000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second after the universe was created, matter was created.

As for life, are you referring to the sentient life of an individual thing, the general life of many types of things, the life a planet, the life of a galaxy, or perhaps, the life of an idea, the life of a belief, the life of a culture, or the life of the universe itself? I know, I know, you mean what we consider to be organic life found here on Earth. I was just playing with you. Right now, science says that perhaps it was created on the backs of crystals, and seeded from extraterrestrial objects. I speculate that life is not created within the universe, rather, life is a testable byproduct of the ascension of gross matter towards substantial reality. There is no reason to think that when science figures out how to create the body of a living thing it will not live. Once you get the heart pumping, everything else falls into place and that's just a matter of transferring energy from one place to another. We already have that bit down.

But the Life that I speak about is not a thing that manifests in this universe. Life merely interacts within the universe using manifested/corporeal things/bodies as tools. However, to truly understand that statement we have to already understand that we are not our bodies. Which is probably a bit off topic for some folks in this thread.

The science itself is accepted. How it can, will and should be used is a completely different issue, because they all rely on the implications of the science, and those aren't all figured out yet. Of course. First, you have to understand that energy is the only way to affect matter. Be it other matter, or a force, energy is defined as the ability to change matter. That being said, how do the protons in a nucleus stay together? They are all positive, so electrical forces should force them away from each other. There must be forces within the nucleus that keep them together. Those don't work via electrical and magnetic fields, so how do they work? Well, we have these particles (or matter) that 'communicate' these forces to and from each proton. The force that these particles need to impart on the protons to keep them together is calculable, and that energy is the exact amount necessary for our new particles to have (otherwise our protons would be flying apart(less energy) or crushed together(more energy)). So we have a particle that has the exact force to counter the electrical force one proton exerts on another, and in order for that particle to impart that force on the protons, it needs to travel from one proton to another. We also know that these particles travel at the speed of light. And, we know that matter and energy are equivalent (from e=m*c squared). The last thing we need to take into account is the fact that the particles are traveling at the speed of light, so we must take relativity into account. When you do that, the energy calculation gains a delta t term (change in time) in the denominator. Because of that, you can pull energy from nothing as long as that energy exists for a very, very, very (10 to the negative 10+) short time. And that's okay because the size of the nucleus is very very small, and the particle is traveling very fast. And yes, these particles have been observed in countless experiments in the particle accelerator in FermiLabs in Chicago and will be observed in the LHC when the tests start going. And actually, quantum mechanics proved the existence of these particles before they were observed, and with pinpoint accuracy. That's a lot, and I've only gotten the theory of this. I may be a little off on the details, but I know that this stuff has been proven, in the math itself as well as experiments.
The catalyst, as far as I understand it, is simple quantum fluctuations. Also, I'm pretty sure that this is still a theory, one that relies on a flat universe, which has been only tentatively accepted by the scientific community.

What you are describing here are reactions. All reactions require an action even if the action is unknown.

So my question is who/what created the creator?

There are many theories but ultimately they all lead to and speak of the [Infinite Supreme]. Which by definition has no creator as it is both infinite and supreme.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Matter is an easy one so I will start with that. First, we need to clarify that the Law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It says nothing about matter.

Problem with your whole...I dunno...thing.

Energy = Matter.

There are many theories but ultimately they all lead to and speak of the [Infinite Supreme]. Which by definition has no creator as it is both infinite and supreme.

I dunno about supreme, but there are quite a few theories out there that stipulate that the universe is infinite. Why do you feel the need to invoke an extra step?
If the "creator" has always existed, why couldn't the universe (in some shape or form) have always existed?
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Matter is an easy one so I will start with that. First, we need to clarify that the Law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It says nothing about matter. I should also point out that this aspect of the Law only applies to energy within the universe. We can only speculate what is beyond the universe. If we can get past the basic reality that all things are created, then I can move on to my speculations, which are much more easily contested. Not to mention being what the thread is all about. Having said that, matter is not created until after electrons create atoms and so forth until eventually, about .00000000000000000000000000000000000001 of a second after the universe was created, matter was created.

You're forgetting that matter and energy are equivalent. Therefore, if energy is conserved, matter is also. In fact, you don't even need matter conservation, because it is covered in energy conservation.



What you are describing here are reactions. All reactions require an action even if the action is unknown.
After all that, this is all I get? :sad4:
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
There are many theories but ultimately they all lead to and speak of the [Infinite Supreme]. Which by definition has no creator as it is both infinite and supreme.

You say that there are many theories. But i'm not too sure if this is what YOU believe.

Do you believe that the creator is eternal, with no creator, no beginning and no end?

-Q
 
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