Creationists: what prevents you from accepting ToE?

[idav]

if evolution is going to happen the way they describe, it shouldnt be dependent on numbers....it should happen regardless of numbers.

Yes but the numbers matter in the time frame we have and our current numbers. And it taks us millions of years to recover from the mass extinctions.

 

[Pegg]

Yes but the numbers matter in the time frame we have and our current numbers. And it taks us millions of years to recover from the mass extinctions.

some scientists and mathematicians have calculated how long it would have taken a chimp to evolve into a human and their numbers reveal that there was not enough time for that to happen

 

[idav]

some scientists and mathematicians have calculated how long it would have taken a chimp to evolve into a human and their numbers reveal that there was not enough time for that to happen

Actually us and chimps evolved from a common ancestor and our evolution was a bit faster but not anything to think we needed any assistance.

 

[painted wolf]

yep, i sure do.

the animals taken on the ark would have been a representative pair from each kind... not every variety of a kind. A kind can multiply into great variety such as we see from the wolf. All varieties of dog are said to have descended from the wolf so its not unreasonable to conclude that it was 2 wolves that Noah took onto the ark....even though there may have been a greater variety of canines available back then just as there are today.

with regard to plants, im pretty sure they recover from a flood without the need to be replanted because seeds can survive for hundreds of years...even thousands of years. In the tombs of egypt, seeds from ancient forms of wheat have been replanted and have grown...so plants could easily have sprung up again without the need for any intervention.

So, you think that new species can evolve in less than a year?
If only two rodents were on the ark, then to get the number of rodent species we have today, they would have had to produce a new species every other year.

If only two wolves were on the ark... and they produced all the "dog kind" then those two wolves would have to produce a new species every 105 years. If you add the dog breeds then they need to produce a new breed every 21 years (this doesn't count all the breeds of wolves or foxes).
Wolves live for 6 to 8 years, so a new species would show up every couple of generations.

Why don't we see these amazing rates of speciation today? How could the first two wolves have built up a population of actual wolves if they were loosing every other generation to the sudden appearance of a new breed or species?

wa:do

 

[Skwim]

yep, i sure do.

the animals taken on the ark would have been a representative pair from each kind... not every variety of a kind.

In order to interbreed almost all would have to be of the same species. Very, very few interbreedings between different species are successful.

A kind can multiply into great variety such as we see from the wolf. All varieties of dog are said to have descended from the wolf so its not unreasonable to conclude that it was 2 wolves that Noah took onto the ark....even though there may have been a greater variety of canines available back then just as there are today.

Just to be clear here, dogs are the same species as wolves, as are the various varieties (breeds) of dogs. Therefore, no one counts dogs and their various breeds, and wolves as different species or, I suppose, kinds. So the wolf line Canis lupus never went on to propagate new species.

with regard to plants, im pretty sure they recover from a flood without the need to be replanted because seeds can survive for hundreds of years...even thousands of years. In the tombs of egypt, seeds from ancient forms of wheat have been replanted and have grown...so plants could easily have sprung up again without the need for any intervention.

Not those under sea water, or even plain water. Prolonged exposure to water, as would have been the case of the great flood, is almost always deadly to plants and their seeds. Furthermore, not all plants propagate by seeds.

 

[Pegg]

Why don't we see these amazing rates of speciation today? How could the first two wolves have built up a population of actual wolves if they were loosing every other generation to the sudden appearance of a new breed or species?

wa:do

are you taking into consideration that dogs produce large litters and more then once a year? dogs can have up to four litters each year and they are sexually mature by 6mths of age...and they have several pups each time.

i think its entirely possible for all the types of dogs we see today to have come from 2 original wolves.

 

[painted wolf]

are you taking into consideration that dogs produce large litters and more then once a year? dogs can have up to four litters each year and they are sexually mature by 6mths of age...and they have several pups each time.

i think its entirely possible for all the types of dogs we see today to have come from 2 original wolves.

Dogs do.... wolves do not.
Wolves only have one litter a year of between one and seven pups.

Are you suggesting that wolves used to reproduce like domestic dogs but don't anymore? Reproducing in the wrong season would be a death sentence for the babies of a wild canid... not to mention that most prey species like deer only have one young a year... they would eat all their prey into extinction in a short time.

wa:do

 

[Pegg]

In order to interbreed almost all would have to be of the same species. Very, very few interbreedings between different species are successful.

each pair of animals would be bred together....the populations would have slowly grown and spread out... and as they did, new varieties would have developed.

one example is that of elephants. There are only 2 types of elephant on earth....the african and the asian....and they live on different continents. so as the population grew, some elephants traveled into africa, others traveled into asia and thus the traits of each family became stronger until both groups of elephant are slightly different from the other.

Just to be clear here, dogs are the same species as wolves, as are the various varieties (breeds) of dogs. Therefore, no one counts dogs and their various breeds, and wolves as different species or, I suppose, kinds. So the wolf line Canis lupus never went on to propagate new species.

i dont think a 'kind' is viewed as having multiple species. A kind is the same animal in a variety of shapes sizes and colours. So a wolf, a greyhound, a foxterrier, a bulldog etc etc are *** the same 'kind'....they all belong in one family.

Not those under sea water, or even plain water. Prolonged exposure to water, as would have been the case of the great flood, is almost always deadly to plants and their seeds. Furthermore, not all plants propagate by seeds.

how do trees and other plants manage to grow on new islands that came up from under the sea? some seeds are carried through water and land on it, or sometimes they are carried by the winds...there are many examples of how seeds survive being in water.

 

[Pegg]

Dogs do.... wolves do not.
Wolves only have one litter a year of between one and seven pups.

Are you suggesting that wolves used to reproduce like domestic dogs but don't anymore? Reproducing in the wrong season would be a death sentence for the babies of a wild canid... not to mention that most prey species like deer only have one young a year... they would eat all their prey into extinction in a short time.

wa:do

the animals were not wild when Noah took them onto the ark...they were not even meat eaters back then

things changed some time after the ark episode, but before that, the bible states that things were very different.

 

[mr black]

The water isn't even the base cause of extinction salt or fresh. The thousands of tons of pressure exerted by that water would have pulverised everything except on the highest mountains. And they don't have vegetation to speak of.

 

[painted wolf]

the animals were not wild when Noah took them onto the ark...they were not even meat eaters back then

things changed some time after the ark episode, but before that, the bible states that things were very different.

So Noah's wolves bred like modern dogs and were vegetarians then?

How did the plants survive all those herbivores? And what about the parasites?

wa:do

ps... you are still ok with new breeds/species of dogs showing up an average of every 20 years?

 

[Gharib]

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. [3:59]

It is He who created you from clay and then decreed a term and a specified time [known] to Him; then [still] you are in dispute. [6:2]

Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay. [32:7]

He created man from clay like [that of] pottery. [55:14]

Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. [24:45]

And it is He who has created from water a human being and made him [a relative by] lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent [concerning creation]. [25:54]

there is more evidence in support of creation than there is of the ToE.

scientists agree that life was created in/from water and that the body is mostly made up of water:

In physiology, body water is the water content of the human body. A significant fraction of the human body is water.
Arthur Guyton 's Textbook of Medical Physiology states that "the total amount of water in a man of average weight (70 kilograms) is approximately 40 litres, averaging 60 percent of his total body weight. In a newborn infant, this may be as high as 75 percent of the body weight, but it progressively decreases from birth to old age, most of the decrease occurring during the first 10 years of life. Also, obesity decreases the percentage of water in the body, sometimes to as low as 45 percent"

wiki

moreover, humans share many clay-like characteristics such as the need of metals for a healthy body, the same metals which are found in clay.

 

[Gharib]

Clay Eaters

Google Books - The clay cure: natural healing from the earth - Ran Knishinsky

 

[shawn001]

So, you think that new species can evolve in less than a year?
If only two rodents were on the ark, then to get the number of rodent species we have today, they would have had to produce a new species every other year.

If only two wolves were on the ark... and they produced all the "dog kind" then those two wolves would have to produce a new species every 105 years. If you add the dog breeds then they need to produce a new breed every 21 years (this doesn't count all the breeds of wolves or foxes).
Wolves live for 6 to 8 years, so a new species would show up every couple of generations.

Why don't we see these amazing rates of speciation today? How could the first two wolves have built up a population of actual wolves if they were loosing every other generation to the sudden appearance of a new breed or species?

wa:do

Not to mention if there are only two on the ark and one dies, then you have a problem.

Which is why

"
P has two of each species of animal, a male and a female. J has 14 (seven pairs) of each species of the pure animals (animals that may be sacrificed) and only two of the animals that are not pure. This is important because J ends the story with Noah making a sacrifice—so he needs more than two of each animal or he would make a species extinct!"

other problems

"In the P creation story, God creates a space (firmament) that separates waters that are above it from waters below. The universe in that story is thus a habitable bubble surrounded by water. That same conception is assumed here in the P flood story, in which the "apertures of the skies" and the "fountains of the great deep" are broken up so that the waters flow in. The word "rain" does not occur. The J creation account, on the other hand, has no such conception, and here in the J flood story it just rains."

NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Who Wrote the Flood Story? | PBS

Not to mention its proven there was never a global flood.

 

[shawn001]

You know its funny when you mention TOE creationsist shoot off to evolution first and never talk about geology and plate tectonics and the fact the navy proved plate tectonic's, back in the 60's.

Or that astronomy and the age of the enitre solar system is around 5 billion years.

Or how long it took for the moon to cool after a planet the size of mars hit the early earth when it was forming.

Or that we can see new "suns/stars forming new solar systems right now.

The age of the earth isn't based on evolution of life, it supports it.

The age of the earth is based on cosmology, astronomy, geology, chemistry, magnetism and more.

 

[Shermana]

The navy didn't so much prove Plate Tectonics (at least in its current form) as they did disprove the then-theory of Continental Drift. How exactly the Plate Tectonics work is still up to debate. Whole Earth decompression theory may take a while into break the established "Academic sphere" but it fills up a lot of gaps with standard PT theory.

http://ponderingconfusion.com/FDWEDT1

Comets basically throw a monkey wrench into the old-universe theories for one thing. There's also the issue of seeing barely a thousand Supernova Remnants when we should technically see millions. But that's for another thread.

 

[shawn001]

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. [3:59]

It is He who created you from clay and then decreed a term and a specified time [known] to Him; then [still] you are in dispute. [6:2]

Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay. [32:7]

He created man from clay like [that of] pottery. [55:14]

Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. [24:45]

And it is He who has created from water a human being and made him [a relative by] lineage and marriage. And ever is your Lord competent [concerning creation]. [25:54]

there is more evidence in support of creation than there is of the ToE.

scientists agree that life was created in/from water and that the body is mostly made up of water:

In physiology, body water is the water content of the human body. A significant fraction of the human body is water.
Arthur Guyton 's Textbook of Medical Physiology states that "the total amount of water in a man of average weight (70 kilograms) is approximately 40 litres, averaging 60 percent of his total body weight. In a newborn infant, this may be as high as 75 percent of the body weight, but it progressively decreases from birth to old age, most of the decrease occurring during the first 10 years of life. Also, obesity decreases the percentage of water in the body, sometimes to as low as 45 percent"

wiki

moreover, humans share many clay-like characteristics such as the need of metals for a healthy body, the same metals which are found in clay.

Scientists agree that life on earth is carbon based. There is something you don't know about I guess.

So where did the element carbon come from?

Nucleosynthesis

"A star's energy comes from the combining of light elements into heavier elements in a process known as fusion, or "nuclear burning". It is generally believed that most of the elements in the universe heavier than helium are created, or synthesized, in stars when lighter nuclei fuse to make heavier nuclei. The process is called nucleosynthesis.
Nucleosynthesis requires a high-speed collision, which can only be achieved with very high temperature. The minimum temperature required for the fusion of hydrogen is 5 million degrees. Elements with more protons in their nuclei require still higher temperatures. For instance, fusing carbon requires a temperature of about one billion degrees! Most of the heavy elements, from oxygen up through iron, are thought to be produced in stars that contain at least ten times as much matter as our Sun."

NASA's Cosmicopia - Basics - Composition - Nucleosynthesis

Our sun is not big enough to create carbon. The carbon came from earlier super nova star explosions billions of years ago. The material seed the universe with the elements. The sun and earth and planets are made from recycled material. You are made from recycled star dust.

There are better pictures now of this process, but

Astronomy Picture of the Day

Explanation: Massive stars cook elements in their cores through nuclear fusion. Starting with the light elements of hydrogen and helium, their central temperatures and pressures produce progressively heavier elements, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. up through iron. At the end of their lives they explode in a spectacular supernova, scattering these elements into space, contributing material to the formation of other stars and star systems. In fact, the elements making up life on Earth were baked in such a stellar oven! This Hubble Space Telescope image of a supernova remnant known as N132D in the Large Magellanic Cloud (LMC) allows astronomers to explore the details of this nuclear processing and mixing. It reveals luminous clouds of cooked supernova debris energized by shocks -- singly ionized sulfur appears red, doubly ionized oxygen, green, and singly ionized oxygen, blue. The region shown above is about 50 lightyears across.

APOD: May 9, 1996 - Supernova Remnant: Cooking Elements In The LMC

 

[mr black]

You are made from recycled star dust.

Well call me Ziggy

 

[shawn001]

The navy didn't so much prove Plate Tectonics (at least in its current form) as they did disprove the then-theory of Continental Drift. How exactly the Plate Tectonics work is still up to debate. Whole Earth decompression theory may take a while into break the established "Academic sphere" but it fills up a lot of gaps with standard PT theory.

The Fluid Dynamics of Whole Earth Decompression Theory

Comets basically throw a monkey wrench into the old-universe theories for one thing. There's also the issue of seeing barely a thousand Supernova Remnants when we should technically see millions. But that's for another thread.

"The navy didn't so much prove Plate Tectonics (at least in its current form) as they did disprove the then-theory of Continental Drift."

Yes they did and Continental Drift is alive and well. The navy mapping the ocean floors and also studies in the magnetism of rocks.

However so has Global Positioning satellites.

Measurement of tectonic plate movements
The amount of tectonic plate movement is measured using
Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites and a network of GPS receivers.
This technology allows scientists to measure plate movements as small as a
few millimeters per year.

Science On the Leading Edge | Measuring Plate Movements

So tell me Shermana, how did the Yellowstone super volcano form and has it erupted in the past?

You do know also that MT Saint helens erupted because of the pacific plate going under the North American contential plate.

 

[johnhanks]

some scientists and mathematicians have calculated how long it would have taken a chimp to evolve into a human and their numbers reveal that there was not enough time for that to happen

You've floated this one before, remember? And it was shredded at the time.

How often do we see this? A creationist raises what she thinks is a killer argument, has it demolished, then after what she thinks is a safe interval brings it out again pretending it's as good as new.