Creationists: what prevents you from accepting ToE?

[johnhanks]

one example is that of elephants. There are only 2 types of elephant on earth....the african and the asian....and they live on different continents. so as the population grew, some elephants traveled into africa, others traveled into asia ...

As a matter of interest, how did sloth kind make it to South America? And how did Noah get hold of his stock of sloths in the first place?

 

[Skwim]

each pair of animals would be bred together....the populations would have slowly grown and spread out... and as they did, new varieties would have developed.

Not concerned with varieties, but with species.

one example is that of elephants. There are only 2 types of elephant on earth....the african and the asian....and they live on different continents.

Actually, there are three species, the African forest elephant, African savannah elephant, and the Asian elephant.

so as the population grew, some elephants traveled into africa, others traveled into asia and thus the traits of each family became stronger until both groups of elephant are slightly different from the other.

Science has determined that the Asian elephant is more closely related to the now extinct mammoth than it is to the African elephant.
Also, The first recorded mention of the Asian elephant dates back to the Indus Valley civilizations of 2600–1900 BCE.
Source: Wikipedia

So, considering these facts there is no way all three species could have evolved into their present forms from a single elephant "kind" 4,000 years ago. The flood being commonly dated to 2,500-2,300 BCE

i dont think a 'kind' is viewed as having multiple species. A kind is the same animal in a variety of shapes sizes and colours. So a wolf, a greyhound, a foxterrier, a bulldog etc etc are *** the same 'kind'....they all belong in one family.

Of course they all belong to the same family. The same family as the foxes, coyotes, and jackles. And if kind's are not comprised of more than one species then they must comprise at least as many members as the species rank which now numbers around 1,740,330 source

how do trees and other plants manage to grow on new islands that came up from under the sea? some seeds are carried through water and land on it, or sometimes they are carried by the winds...there are many examples of how seeds survive being in water.

But with no land on which to alight---it rained for 40 days, the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days, and it took another 150 days for the water to dry up. So for at least 200 days there would be no islands on which anything could be deposited. They would all be underwater. As for seeds getting to islands, most commonly it gets there in bird poop. And I'm not saying all seeds meet their demise in water, just that almost all of them do. And of those seed that float to islands, commonly called drift seeds, they do so because of the ocean currents, which would not have existed under the flood conditions, so such seeds would more than likely end up on land with higher elevations than the islands on which we now find them.

 

[Gharib]

Scientists agree that life on earth is carbon based. There is something you don't know about I guess.

So where did the element carbon come from?

Nucleosynthesis

"A star's energy comes from the combining of light elements into heavier elements in a process known as fusion, or "nuclear burning". It is generally believed that most of the elements in the universe heavier than helium are created, or synthesized, in stars when lighter nuclei fuse to make heavier nuclei. The process is called nucleosynthesis.
Nucleosynthesis requires a high-speed collision, which can only be achieved with very high temperature. The minimum temperature required for the fusion of hydrogen is 5 million degrees. Elements with more protons in their nuclei require still higher temperatures. For instance, fusing carbon requires a temperature of about one billion degrees! Most of the heavy elements, from oxygen up through iron, are thought to be produced in stars that contain at least ten times as much matter as our Sun."

NASA's Cosmicopia - Basics - Composition - Nucleosynthesis

Our sun is not big enough to create carbon. The carbon came from earlier super nova star explosions billions of years ago. The material seed the universe with the elements. The sun and earth and planets are made from recycled material. You are made from recycled star dust.

There are better pictures now of this process, but

Astronomy Picture of the Day

Explanation: Massive stars cook elements in their cores through nuclear fusion. Starting with the light elements of hydrogen and helium, their central temperatures and pressures produce progressively heavier elements, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. up through iron. At the end of their lives they explode in a spectacular supernova, scattering these elements into space, contributing material to the formation of other stars and star systems. In fact, the elements making up life on Earth were baked in such a stellar oven! This Hubble Space Telescope image of a supernova remnant known as N132D in the Large Magellanic Cloud (LMC) allows astronomers to explore the details of this nuclear processing and mixing. It reveals luminous clouds of cooked supernova debris energized by shocks -- singly ionized sulfur appears red, doubly ionized oxygen, green, and singly ionized oxygen, blue. The region shown above is about 50 lightyears across.

APOD: May 9, 1996 - Supernova Remnant: Cooking Elements In The LMC

i don't understand the point you are trying to make? how is what you said related to what i said?

 

[Matthew78]

The navy didn't so much prove Plate Tectonics (at least in its current form) as they did disprove the then-theory of Continental Drift. How exactly the Plate Tectonics work is still up to debate. Whole Earth decompression theory may take a while into break the established "Academic sphere" but it fills up a lot of gaps with standard PT theory.

The Fluid Dynamics of Whole Earth Decompression Theory

Comets basically throw a monkey wrench into the old-universe theories for one thing. There's also the issue of seeing barely a thousand Supernova Remnants when we should technically see millions. But that's for another thread.

Are you a young-earth creationist? This statement about supernova remnants, IIRC, is an argument used by creationist spin-doctor Jonathan Sarfati in his ridiculous book Refuting Evolution to support a young earth.

 

[shawn001]

i don't understand the point you are trying to make? how is what you said related to what i said?

"moreover, humans share many clay-like characteristics such as the need of metals for a healthy body, the same metals which are found in clay.

I just pointed out to you where those metals came from, early supernova star explosions billions of years ago. You the solar system the earth, everything is made from recycled star dust. The solar system is not first generation material. It floated in space for billions of years first before it started a proccess called stellar accreation and became the solar system, the earth and us.

The TOE is an established scientific fact. Based on billions of facts, in different scientific theories from all the sciences and that are all interconnected to each other extremly well. There are details to work still, but no logial or reasonable person who actually looks at those billions of facts and the history of the earth, unless belief or culture holds them back, would think otherwise. But here we are regarless of the big picture and the facts. From the formation of the universe to our solar system, to our sun and earth and moon and the planets. We know how old all the planets are as well as our sun. We can also watch new stars/suns form right in front of our eyes right now.

This is a stellar nursery.

Right after the big bang matter itself formed from energy and everything from that point on has evolved in our universe. We can trace path this right now, right to us.

We also know that process started around 13.7 billion years ago with a 1% margin of error.

 

[shawn001]

Pegg

Remember when you said humans were never covered in hair.

Through history, as natural selection played its part in the development of modern man, many of the useful functions and parts of the human body become unnecessary. What is most fascinating is that many of these parts of the body still remain in some form so we can see the progress of evolution. This list covers the ten most significant evolutionary changes that have taken place – leaving signs behind them.


Humans get goose bumps when they are cold, frightened, angry, or in awe. Many other creatures get goose bumps for the same reason, for example this is why a cat or dog’s hair stands on end and the cause behind a porcupine’s quills raising. In cold situations, the rising hair traps air between the hairs and skin, creating insulation and warmth. In response to fear, goose bumps make an animal appear larger – hopefully scaring away the enemy. Humans no longer benefit from goose bumps and they are simply left over from our past when we were not clothed and needed to scare our own natural enemies. Natural selection removed the thick hair but left behind the mechanism for controlling it.


We also still have the Plantaris Muscle in our feet

The plantaris muscle is used by animals in gripping and manipulating objects with their feet – something you see with apes who seem to be able to use their feet as well as their hands. Humans have this muscle as well, but it is now so underdeveloped that it is often taken out by doctors when they need tissue for reconstruction in other parts of the body. The muscle is so unimportant to the human body that 9% of humans are now born without it.

Wisdom Teeth another left over.

Extra Ear Muscles also

Third Eyelid also

Top 10 Signs Of Evolution In Modern Man

 

[Shermana]

Are you a young-earth creationist? This statement about supernova remnants, IIRC, is an argument used by creationist spin-doctor Jonathan Sarfati in his ridiculous book Refuting Evolution to support a young earth.

Yes, I am a YEC, and telling me that the argument is used by a spin-doctor and that his book is ridiculous is a ridiculous attempt to smear the argument rather than disprove it as if he's the only one who uses such an argument. Perhaps you'd like to actually comment on the issue? In detail?

 

[mr black]

Yes, I am a YEC, and telling me that the argument is used by a spin-doctor and that his book is ridiculous is a ridiculous attempt to smear the argument rather than disprove it as if he's the only one who uses such an argument. Perhaps you'd like to actually comment on the issue? In detail?

How old is the earth and how old is the universe?

 

[Shermana]

How old is the earth and how old is the universe?

I personally believe the Earth is about 12,000 years old (Comets are about the same), as for the Universe I am undecided if it's the same but so far leaning towards. Now do you have anything to comment on the Supernovas remnants?

 

[Pegg]

So Noah's wolves bred like modern dogs and were vegetarians then?

How did the plants survive all those herbivores? And what about the parasites?

wa:do

ps... you are still ok with new breeds/species of dogs showing up an average of every 20 years?

you've likely heard of the story of the bread that came down from the sky to feed the Isrealites in the desert ....how the food was supplied to such animals after the flood, i really cant say, but i know its well within Gods capability of providing food when no food is present.

with regard to new breeds of dogs, some dog breeds take a matter of a few years to develop by breeders... so im not sure what the issue is???

 

[Krok]

Yes, I am a YEC, and telling me that the argument is used by a spin-doctor and that his book is ridiculous is a ridiculous attempt to smear the argument rather than disprove it as if he's the only one who uses such an argument. Perhaps you'd like to actually comment on the issue? In detail?

Sarfati is one of the biggest liars and frauds that's ever walked the face of the earth. He can only lie. That's it. He can't do anything else. Talk:Jonathan Sarfati - RationalWiki

 

[Gharib]

"moreover, humans share many clay-like characteristics such as the need of metals for a healthy body, the same metals which are found in clay.

I just pointed out to you where those metals came from, early supernova star explosions billions of years ago. You the solar system the earth, everything is made from recycled star dust. The solar system is not first generation material. It floated in space for billions of years first before it started a proccess called stellar accreation and became the solar system, the earth and us.

i have no problem with that, and there is nothing wrong about what i said. my point stands.

The TOE is an established scientific fact. Based on billions of facts, in different scientific theories from all the sciences and that are all interconnected to each other extremly well. There are details to work still, but no logial or reasonable person who actually looks at those billions of facts and the history of the earth, unless belief or culture holds them back, would think otherwise. But here we are regarless of the big picture and the facts. From the formation of the universe to our solar system, to our sun and earth and moon and the planets. We know how old all the planets are as well as our sun. We can also watch new stars/suns form right in front of our eyes right now.

that is your belief, the ToE can be broken at any time with new discoveries, it is a work in progress, at one point you may find something in support of it and in another point in time when our technology will be more advanced it will get broken/disproved.

Right after the big bang matter itself formed from energy and everything from that point on has evolved in our universe. We can trace path this right now, right to us.

We also know that process started around 13.7 billion years ago with a 1% margin of error.

the point where you and i make no sense to one another and disagree on many things is when you mention the word 'Evolution' no evolution has taken place. little changes have and do occur however not big changes like what ToE says. moreover, we are more related to clay/earth than we are to apes. potatoes have a closer number of chromosomes to humans than apes.

 

[Krok]

I know this is not addressed to me, but it's so juicy! It's just so amazing how people can deny reality.

I personally believe the Earth is about 12,000 years old (Comets are about the same),...

What you personally believe won't change reality. We can actually see some of the larger comets lurking in the Kuiper Belt! We took photo's! Billions of years old.

...as for the Universe I am undecided if it's the same but so far leaning towards.

What you decide or not won't change reality.

Now do you have anything to comment on the Supernovas remnants?

What about them? Do you have any point? They occur all over, and the better our technology develops, the more of them we see!

Oh, and Shermana, what do you think comets and supernova have to do with the ToE?

My guess is that it's because you don't know that the ToE deals with biology, not cosmology? To you a "scientist" is a "scientist" is a "scientist". In the real world it's different .Cosmology does not deal with the ToE at all. Cosmologists would know nothing about the ToE. Why don't you stay on the subject?

 

[Pegg]

As a matter of interest, how did sloth kind make it to South America? And how did Noah get hold of his stock of sloths in the first place?

i cant answer such questions im afraid. But im not going to discount the bible event because i dont know how sloths got to south america.

for all we know they might have been carried there on the backs of people who migrated in search of new lands. People have been breeding and raising all sorts of animals and moving them around with them as they migrated to new places.

 

[Krok]

that is your belief, the ToE can be broken at any time with new discoveries, it is a work in progress, at one point you may find something in support of it and in another point in time when our technology will be more advanced it will get broken/disproved.

That's science. The theory of gravition may be broken/disproved. It's a work in progress. If the moon was made out of cheese...

... the point where you and i make no sense to one another

That's why the scientific method is so valuable. Evidence. It works. It also weeds the liars out.

...and disagree on many things is when you mention the word 'Evolution' no evolution has taken place

I'm afraid untruths don't last for too long in science. Way too many experts all over the world to catch you out. We've actually seen evolution happening, both in the lab and in the field. People who don't tell the truth normally are not taken seriously.

.. little changes have and do occur however not big changes like what ToE says.

Luckily we have evidence that they do. In my field we have fossils. Biologists have all kinds of evidence that these changes happen, too.

.. moreover, we are more related to clay/earth than we are to apes.

Are we? Could we see the maths?

..potatoes have a closer number of chromosomes to humans than apes.

You see, eselam, telling untruths won't help when talking to educated people. Potatoes certainly don't have a closer number of chromosomes to humans than apes. Humans have 23 pairs (46), apes have 24 pairs (48) and potatoes also have 24 pairs (48). An interesting feature is that rice have 12 pairs of chromosomes (24), so we are closer to potatoes than potatoes are to rice! Remember that a variety of rice also has the biggest genome "size" of all ever measured.

Real scientists using the scientific method can measure "relatedness". Can you?

 

[Krok]

You've floated this one before, remember? And it was shredded at the time. How often do we see this? A creationist raises what she thinks is a killer argument, has it demolished, then after what she thinks is a safe interval brings it out again pretending it's as good as new.

That's how they all operate. Telling untruths are all they have. That's why their "arguments" are called "PRATTS", but they don't realize that educated people can actually read. They keep repeating untruths to every new crop of creationist kids, every year! (They keep convincing a few new State Representatives in the US about it, too)!

 

[mr black]

i cant answer such questions im afraid. But im not going to discount the bible event because i dont know how sloths got to south america.

for all we know they might have been carried there on the backs of people who migrated in search of new lands. People have been breeding and raising all sorts of animals and moving them around with them as they migrated to new places.

OYG.............are you serious?

 

[Krok]

i cant answer such questions im afraid. But im not going to discount the bible event because i dont know how sloths got to south america.

This is one of the the funniest things I've seen so far.

The usual way of proceeding is that some random creationist asks some question on the formation of the Universe from some random evolutionary biologist. If the biologist can't answer the question about the Universe, the normal creationist response is: "that 'evolutionist' does not know the answer, therefore god!" (The Christian one or the Jewish one or the Islamic one, or whatever, take your pick).

Well, that creationist doesn't know the answer to that question, so therefore the FSM, I guess.:beach:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

if evolution is going to happen the way they describe, it shouldnt be dependent on numbers....it should happen regardless of numbers.

But the evidence shows that is does depend on the numbers. Whether they're talking about time or generations for species.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

some scientists and mathematicians have calculated how long it would have taken a chimp to evolve into a human and their numbers reveal that there was not enough time for that to happen

Well...they wrong simply due to the fact that the human primate didn't evolve from chimpanzees. We share a common ancestor and we diverged from that ancestor millions of years ago.