Critic on Islam

[Caladan]

I know that it might hurt others. I've thought about it before putting it on. I'm really sorry but all that I want to know is why people considering me to preach just because I put the muslim view in it. Muslim view is according to the Quran. I can't firgure out any other reason why people hate so much since I just put muslims view upon the matter. So, I came to a conclusion to put this word on the screen to know why telling the view of Quran is considered a sermon.

Perhaps you need to understand that many people in the 'west' live in a secular environment. many people in North America also come from a Christian background. hearing about the Bible having the answers is not a foreign concept, hearing that rejecting this belief is from the devil is not foreign either.
this is one reason people will reject your arguments every time you bring this.
We all understand it is an Islamic belief. but it really doesn't help us in objective debates.
in this instance, I illustrated a broader point, and you chose to focus on my comment on scriptures in order to talk about the Qur'an. which was not the main point to begin with.

The problem is. that you asked from people their critic of Islam, and when people start discussing, this discussion very quickly ended up with you talking about the infallibility of the Qur'an and that I have hatred in my heart simply for providing you with criticism you've asked for in the first place!

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Telling me that I have hatred in my heart is hardly explaining to me the Islamic point of view. is it?

Don't give me such reply. I've been gentle in my word and I will. I have no other word to tell you. I come with an explaination with no word of glorifying the Quran but I still considered the same as other. You who take it as 'Al-Quran have the answer' not me. If I don't write such sentence in my word, why should you think that I do? If you accusing me of glorifying it without any reason, it is hatred. But if it's not hatred and anger upon me for you to accuse me of glorifying the Quran, so how can I describe your feeling. I really have much respect for you as a moderator and knowledgeable person. Sorry if my reply make you angry.

 

[Badran]

Hi,

One of the big things I can think of is that Muslims normally illustrate Islam or their points in major debates in social opposites, and many times in order to glorify Islam in the face of its opposite.
for example: that the Islamic scripture is infallible but the other major scriptures are corrupted, the virtues of Islam against an immoral west, etc.

I agree.

Like Madhuri, I think the disappointment is that many of us are opened enough to communicate every day with other cultures, we are even opened enough to happily study their religion or theology, but when we discuss these things with Muslims we know we are headed towards a brick wall, and that all our sound arguments, supported by natural sciences or by good intentions are going to be exhausted.

I fail to see how is this supposed to be a criticism of Islam or Muslims. It applies exactly the same way, the other way around. Many of us Muslims are opened enough to communicate every day with other cultures, discuss whatever topic etc.... only to be met by ignorant, bigoted individuals from all sorts of backgrounds and belief systems sounding off their supposed criticism which is mostly either based on misunderstanding, poor knowledge, or just flat out dishonesty.

Its a bit disappointing, that you take the time to read someone's scripture, study their religion and history, and not get that in return. its also disappointing that you want to keep up to date with modern science and philosophy, but many arguments which involve Islam seem to expect you to simply shrug off whatever scientific or philosophical understanding you have acquired through the years.
its as if many of us have a knee jerk reaction to expect misconceptions or antagonising in political, social, or religious issues when debating Muslims.

I disagree, i don't see Muslims getting any such supposed special treatment in this regard.

To capture what I am trying to illustrate:
Many here do their best to be opened towards discussion with Muslims and about Islam in general, we do our best to see beyond stereotypes, but get the sense that no matter how far we will reach for the most culturally positive aspects in Islam, we will have the nagging feeling that many Muslims will do their best to form Orientalist prejudices in our brains against our will.

Again, i don't see how this cannot be said exactly the other way around. Its either an inaccurate and unfortunate generalization (which would explain why you felt its relevant as a criticism to Muslims in particular), or you're simply noting this behavior in some Muslims, while also realizing its applies to everybody else, in which case i fail to see how its really relevant and think you could have worded it much better to make that clear.

 

[Madhuri]

You who take it as 'Al-Quran have the answer' not me.

You actually wrote "Al-Quran have give the answer"

But I think there might be a slight communication problem due to your English abilities. I have a little trouble understanding your meaning sometimes.

 

[Caladan]

Don't give me such reply. I've been gentle in my word and I will. I have no other word to tell you. I come with an explaination with no word of glorifying the Quran but I still considered the same as other. You who take it as 'Al-Quran have the answer' not me.

This is you in post #13:

Al-Quran have give the answer and that is what muslim believe. They will glorify the Quran in the eyes of human being.

If I don't write such sentence in my word, why should you think that I do? If you accusing me of glorifying it without any reason, it is hatred. But if it's not hatred and anger upon me for you to accuse me of glorifying the Quran, so how can I describe your feeling. I really have much respect for you as a moderator and knowledgeable person. Sorry if my reply make you angry.

Tired. not angry. you will find that I am actually very hospitable to you after you will meet our other critics of Islam...

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Perhaps you need to understand that many people in the 'west' live in a secular environment. many people in North America also come from a Christian background. hearing about the Bible having the answers is not a foreign concept, hearing that rejecting this belief is from the devil is not foreign either.
this is one reason people will reject your arguments every time you bring this.
We all understand it is an Islamic belief. but it really doesn't help us in objective debates.
in this instance, I illustrated a broader point, and you chose to focus on my comment on scriptures in order to talk about the Qur'an. which was not the main point to begin with.

The problem is. that you asked from people their critic of Islam, and when people start discussing, this discussion very quickly ended up with you talking about the infallibility of the Qur'an and that I have hatred in my heart simply for providing you with criticism you've asked for in the first place!

It's simple but it have been made hard by people. I just simply put 'in Islam view' or 'I believe'. People should understand that the statement is from the writer's view or his religion view. We even not asking for them to believe but we just simply informing them. Why should we get too offended since it's the writer's religion view not our religions view.

 

[Caladan]

Hi Badran,

Maybe if I present it from my point of view, you will see the pattern with other people.
take me for example. I consider myself a pretty opened person. I will happily study the culture and religions of other people and other periods in history.
I will pick up the Qur'an, and spend hours studying it, if only for a culturally enriching experience, or because of a genuine need to better understand history. but whenever we are discussing the Qur'an on line, I know we are heading towards a shaky ground, I know that I have to compromise my objectivity, because Muslims are going to demand from me unreasonable standards.
I read the Qur'an from a different mindset from that of the orthodox Muslims, and in discussions, its a basic understanding which must be accepted at some point or the other.
so far, many of us have failed on this point.
and while I agree with your last point. you have to admit that its disappointing to study the Qur'an and Islam in general, and then being blamed for having hatred in your heart because you don't see eye to eye with the orthodox views of Islam.
how can I to begin with? I am not a Muslim.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

This is you in post #13:



Tired. not angry. you will find that I am actually very hospitable to you after you will meet our other critics of Islam...

I did write 'why muslim'. I'm talking about muslim view and I put 'They' will glorify it infront of others. Al-Quran have the answer is also muslims view. I just inform the view of muslim.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

Hi Bardan,

Maybe if I present it from my point of view, you will see the pattern with other people.
take me for example. I consider myself a pretty opened person. I will happily study the culture and religions of other people and other periods in history.
I will pick up the Qur'an, and spend hours studying it, if only for a culturally enriching experience, or because of a genuine need to better understand history. but whenever we are discussing the Qur'an on line, I know we are heading towards a shaky ground, I know that I have to compromise my objectivity, because Muslims are going to demand from me unreasonable standards.
I read the Qur'an from a different mindset from that of the orthodox Muslims, and in discussions, its a basic understanding which must be accepted at some point or the other.
so far, many of us have failed on this point.
and while I agree with your last point. you have to admit that its disappointing to study the Qur'an and Islam in general, and then being blamed for having hatred in your heart because you don't see eye to eye with the orthodox views of Islam.
how can I to begin with? I am not a Muslim.

There is no orthodox view. Scripture is view as it is. I just don't understand how can we view scripture with different view. Can you give me example??

 

[Caladan]

There is no orthodox view. Scripture is view as it is. I just don't understand how can we view scripture with different view. Can you give me example??

I am referring to the fact, that the sooner you understand that non Muslims do not see it from a traditional Islamic view, and that the traditional view (whether it is Islam or Christianity) does not stand in various debates, the easier it will be for you to discuss and debate. for example people are unlikely to take any arguments which involve 'the Qur'an', 'Miracles', and 'Science' in the same paragraph seriously.
you can't blame us for not accepting the Islamic view when we are not Muslims. many of the Islamic arguments will always draw fire. its pretty natural.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

I am referring to the fact, that the sooner you understand that non Muslims do not see it from a traditional Islamic view, and that the traditional view (whether it is Islam or Christianity) does not stand in various debates, the easier it will be for you to discuss and debate. for example people are unlikely to take any arguments which involve 'the Qur'an', 'Miracles', and 'Science' in the same paragraph seriously.
you can't blame us for not accepting the Islamic view when we are not Muslims. many of the Islamic arguments will always draw fire. its pretty natural.

I see. Can you provide me with some example of the arguments??

 

[AhmadSyahir]

You actually wrote "Al-Quran have give the answer"

But I think there might be a slight communication problem due to your English abilities. I have a little trouble understanding your meaning sometimes.

Always remember that it is all muslim view. I use 'they' in my sentence.
Yes, you're right about the language abilities. I'm still learning so that I can be better in writing. I apologize for any misunderstanding caused by my poor language ability.

 

[Caladan]

I see. Can you provide me with some example of the arguments??

What for? I have the feeling you will only explain to me 'the Islamic view' again.
I think its not complicated. to many of us science prevails over theology.
perhaps you think differently. and that's OK. but in a debate, members consider it a distraction.

 

[Badran]

Hi Badran,

Maybe if I present it from my point of view, you will see the pattern with other people.
take me for example. I consider myself a pretty opened person. I will happily study the culture and religions of other people and other periods in history.
I will pick up the Qur'an, and spend hours studying it, if only for a culturally enriching experience, or because of a genuine need to better understand history. but whenever we are discussing the Qur'an on line, I know we are heading towards a shaky ground, I know that I have to compromise my objectivity, because Muslims are going to demand from me unreasonable standards.
I read the Qur'an from a different mindset from that of the orthodox Muslims, and in discussions, its a basic understanding which must be accepted at some point or the other.
so far, many of us have failed on this point.
and while I agree with your last point. you have to admit that its disappointing to study the Qur'an and Islam in general, and then being blamed for having hatred in your heart because you don't see eye to eye with the orthodox views of Islam.
how can I to begin with? I am not a Muslim.

Hi Caladan,

I understand what you're saying, and agree that dismissing the view of someone who has put as much effort as you have (and you are not a normal example, you have put more effort than average) as hatred in your heart or things like that is disappointing.

Regarding viewing the Quran, i also understand what you're saying. But if you remember a thread sometime ago about the Quran, where supposed criticisms were offered, such thing didn't occur, or at least on the scale you're suggesting. Most of what was presented as supposed criticism was at best pathetic. When valid arguments were presented however, they were addressed properly. And by addressed, i mean an attempt at explanation.

Neither i nor do many Muslims expect others to see the Quran the same way we do. Attempting to explain things doesn't mean we insist that you view it as we do. And i can recall more than one instance when i reached agreement with a completely opposite position, and others where i actually accepted certain criticisms as both understandable and valid.

Its not my fault however if most of the time the criticism is based on misunderstanding, poor information (and the person usually haven't even tried to acquire information), or bad intentions. Which is mostly why such debates do not end constructively (alongside some Muslims also doing what you said).

What i'm saying simply is that its a problem with both sides in this regard.

 

[Caladan]

Hi Caladan,

I understand what you're saying, and agree that dismissing the view of someone who has put as much effort as you have (and you are not a normal example, you have put more effort than average) as hatred in your heart or things like that is disappointing.

Well. I've followed the posts of various members, and many members have a genuine interest in studying Islam. many members at minimum have actually took the time to sit down and read the Qur'an, and have looked into various Surahs and passages in a more elaborative way.

Regarding viewing the Quran, i also understand what you're saying. But if you remember a thread sometime ago about the Quran, where supposed criticisms were offered, such thing didn't occur, or at least on the scale you're suggesting. Most of what was presented as supposed criticism was at best pathetic. When valid arguments were presented however, they were addressed properly. And by addressed, i mean an attempt at explanation.

Neither i nor do many Muslims expect others to see the Quran the same way we do. Attempting to explain things doesn't mean we insist that you view it as we do. And i can recall more than one instance when i reached agreement with a completely opposite position, and others where i actually accepted certain criticisms as both understandable and valid.

I have to admit that it's been a while since I've participated in such threads, since the time we had a surge of threads about miracles and the Qur'an which put me off from engaging the debates.

Its not my fault however if most of the time the criticism is based on misunderstanding, poor information (and the person usually haven't even tried to acquire information), or bad intentions. Which is mostly why such debates do not end constructively (alongside some Muslims also doing what you said).

Yes, I agree. that is also a problem. quoting the Qur'an in order to present a violent Islam has been as much tiring as quoting the Qur'an in order to present a scientifically proof book.

What i'm saying simply is that its a problem with both sides in this regard.

The problem usually is with both sides. and if this was a similar thread asking for critic of atheism, I would probably end up saying very similar things.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

What for? I have the feeling you will only explain to me 'the Islamic view' again.
I think its not complicated. to many of us science prevails over theology.
perhaps you think differently. and that's OK. but in a debate, members consider it a distraction.

See. I proved myself. I explained Islamic view because I thought you don't know the reason for muslim to say that the Zabur, Torah and Injil(Gospel) is distorted. I provide the islamic view to explain why muslim acting like that. Now, I hope you can do me a favor by providing me the example of the argument.

 

[Caladan]

See. I proved myself. I explained Islamic view because I thought you don't know the reason for muslim to say that the Zabur, Torah and Injil(Gospel) is distorted. I provide the islamic view to explain why muslim acting like that. Now, I hope you can do me a favor by providing me the example of the argument.

I hardly think that the topic of this thread is to debate the Qur'an, its miracles, and science. and this is one of the problems I've been illustrating in this thread.
I'm starting to wonder if you are actually even noticing that you are doing this.
perhaps you need to define your thread better.

do you want us to discuss why we do not believe in Islam in this thread? or do you want us to discuss what difficulties we have when discussing Islam in general?

the two are very different.
you have asked for our image of Islam. these are some of the things we have come up with. I doubt any of us want to discuss why Islam or the Qur'an are true or not.

 

[AhmadSyahir]

I hardly think that the topic of this thread is to debate the Qur'an, its miracles, and science. and this is one of the problems I've been illustrating in this thread.
I'm starting to wonder if you are actually even noticing that you are doing this.
perhaps you need to define your thread better.

do you want us to discuss why we do not believe in Islam in this thread? or do you want us to discuss what difficulties we have when discussing Islam in general?

the two are very different.
you have asked for our image of Islam. these are some of the things we have come up with. I doubt any of us want to discuss why Islam or the Qur'an are true or not.

We start off with critics and the next step will be how to make it clear. Quran is the most important scripture in Islam so don't consider it out of topics. I would like to hear your critics on Quran so we can make it clear. If you don't feel like criticising it in this thread, I can post a new thread to discuss about it. I want to learn and hear people views on the Quran especially from someone that have read it.

You're right, sometimes I got carried away and asking for something that is not very suitable for the title of the thread. I want to ask you a favor, will you present your opinion and critics on Quran in this thread or I can make a new thread so you can write about it? If we can't come to an agreement, we still have nothing to lose. I still learn a valuable lesson from you.

 

[Caladan]

We start off with critics and the next step will be how to make it clear. Quran is the most important scripture in Islam so don't consider it out of topics. I would like to hear your critics on Quran so we can make it clear. If you don't feel like criticising it in this thread, I can post a new thread to discuss about it. I want to learn and hear people views on the Quran especially from someone that have read it.
You're right, sometimes I got carried away and asking for something that is not very suitable for the title of the thread. I want to ask you a favor, will you present your opinion and critics on Quran in this thread or I can make a new thread so you can write about it? If we can't come to an agreement, we still have nothing to lose. I still learn a valuable lesson from you.

It seems that myself and the other members have simply misunderstood your post. when you say 'Critic of Islam' we've got a different idea.
I think that by now many of us have seen plenty of debates about the Qur'an, enough to be careful not to hurry up and jump into one.
My post was not criticizing the Qur'an, it was criticizing the way many Muslims present the Qur'an in debates, and as a result give a hard time in discussing it.
an example for this is, that I think it's safe to say that all non Muslim members on this website do not consider the Qur'an to be related to science in debates. while many Muslim members through the years have joined the website with that specific goal.
many non Muslim members consider this a problem, because it does not give an objective platform for debate.
When you provide paragraphs which may indicate 'the Qur'an is from God', or 'the Bible is from God'. that moment the debate has ended.

 

[Badran]

Well. I've followed the posts of various members, and many members have a genuine interest in studying Islam. many members at minimum have actually took the time to sit down and read the Qur'an, and have looked into various Surahs and passages in a more elaborative way.

There are indeed members like that. I wasn't saying there aren't any, or only a handful, just that it isn't what we normally get.

The problem usually is with both sides. and if this was a similar thread asking for critic of atheism, I would probably end up saying very similar things.

Okay, thanks. I knew that was possibly what was going on, but i thought it could use more clarification.