Criticism of Islam.

[TagliatelliMonster]

What do you mean "Militant Islam"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They picked Abdul Wahab and Ibn Taymiyah who's interpretations of Islam were rejected by majority of Sunni scholars, and even deemed heretics for attributing God body limbs.

Sure, they didn't invent the monstrous atrocities in those books warping Islam to kill other Muslims, but they supported that version. You tell me why now.

I don't care why. I don't even care if it's true or not. It doesn't matter.
Here you are, saying that "THEY weren't REAL" muslims, like a good little no true scottsman.
They say the same about you. In fact, we have a muslim right here on this forum in this thread, calling your religious beliefs "bigotry".

The fact that you feel the need to single out "sunni" already implies my point.
You feel the need to talk about a subset of muslims.


This is no different then catholics yapping about protestants. Both are christians though.

 

[Brinne]

This is not relevant to the point I made.
Which is: the beliefs are the beliefs. The beliefs weren't invented or brought over by colonists. They were already there.

It is incredibly relevant. As I stated; the historical reality doesn't support your statement in the slightest. I'm not really keen on debating this from a position of anecdotes or emotion.

Extremism surged as a result of historical events in the region. Ideology was utilized as a weapon (as is the same in the case of Liberalism -- yet we don't throw that out wholesale) to spur a sense of 'pan-nationalism' against colonial interests. This type of extremism was not a constant throughout history; therefore it can't be intrinsic to the religion or else it would be a constant in the region's history -- which it was not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is incredibly relevant. As I stated; the historical reality doesn't support your statement in the slightest. I'm not really keen on debating this from a position of anecdotes or emotion.

Extremism surged as a result of historical events in the region. Ideology was utilized as a weapon (as is the same in the case of Liberalism -- yet we don't throw that out wholesale) to spur a sense of 'pan-nationalism' against colonial interests. This type of extremism was not a constant throughout history; therefore it can't be intrinsic to the religion or else it would be a constant in the region's history -- which it was not.

I have already acknowledged that a surge in extremism can be a reaction to geopolitical situations.
My point is that extremist beliefs, require beliefs to be extreme about.

 

[Brinne]

I have already acknowledged that a surge in extremism can be a reaction to geopolitical situations.
My point is that extremist beliefs, require beliefs to be extreme about.

Those beliefs can be found in literally any belief system. So following your logic; you'd need to universally condemn every ideological structure from Neoliberalism, Buddhism, ect.

Which is why it's far more effective (and actually implementable) to address the material and geopolitical concerns which have led to this reality -- the things that human beings can reasonably tackle.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Those beliefs can be found in literally any belief system.
So following your logic; you'd need to universally condemn every ideological structure from Neoliberalism, Buddhism, ect.

Give me an example of a religion where "colonialism" incited extremist beliefs has lead to the uprising of entire nations being engulfed by theocratic barbarism with literally hundreds of religiously inspired militant groups carrying out terrorist attack after terrorist attack.

Sorry it just doesn't add up.

Colonialism, sure.
But there is something else.
It's colonialism + something extra.

Which is why it's far more effective (and actually implementable) to address the material and geopolitical concerns which have led to this reality -- the things that human beings can reasonably tackle.

How do you propose to do that to end the religious barbarism in all those middle eastern countries?

Where in the world is there a comparable situation?
It's not like these middle eastern countries were the only victims of imperialism and colonialism.

 

[stevecanuck]

Sure.

Nevertheless, there are millions upon millions of examples of muslims who already act like I described: focusing on the nice bits and completely ignoring all the horrible bits, or coming up with excuses as to why "it doesn't count" any more.

First, if the post you responded to looked a little off, it's because I meant to say NT where I wrote OT. I just saw that.

A lot of people are under the illusion that there are "nice bits" in the Qur'an. I could list perhaps 6 out of 6,236 verses that would qualify.

The way I see it, the problem in the middle east is that they actively uphold the status quo because the leadership enforces fundamentalism through theocratic rule.

Or, as they see it, obeying Allah.

It will stay that way until there is a true "enlightment" in that region, or something similar to it, which is triggered by the people themselves.

There is virtually nothing in the Qur'an to trigger an enlightenment. Just one example - 61:4, "Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a structure joined firmly". This sort of verse took over as the primary message by the end.

The whole idea of countries like the US moving in with F16s and tanks saying "we bring you democracy and freedom" is never going to work. In fact, it only makes it worse.

Freedom is not something that can be "given" to you. It's something you need to grab and fight for yourself. Only then will it last.

Who needs democracy when this life is nothing more than an audition for getting into heaven for eternity? Verse 9:111, IMO, sums up the final position to which Mohamed took Islam - "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Please don't think of a reason to blow that last example off. Think of all the Islamic extremism going on today and then reread that verse.

 

[stevecanuck]

Where in the world is there a comparable situation?
It's not like these middle eastern countries were the only victims of imperialism and colonialism.

Correct. All we have to do is look at South America. If brutal colonialism was the prime catalyst for terrorism, that entire continent would be engulfed in Catholic 'jihad'. Maybe, just maybe, Islam is the other ingredient.

 

[stevecanuck]

Those beliefs can be found in literally any belief system. So following your logic; you'd need to universally condemn every ideological structure from Neoliberalism, Buddhism, ect.

That's absurd. Each "ideological structure" needs to be examined on its own merits and dealt with separately. So following your logic, you would have to consider extreme Jainism as dangerous as extreme Islam. That would be the absurd bit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What do you mean "Militant Islam"? I have never in my life heard of a Militant Islam on any Muslims mouth, be it an Imam, Maulawi, Hasrath, nor person who walks in the street. Never.

So please explain what you mean by "Militant Islam".

"Militant Islam" is a phrase common in American to refer to those ideolgoical elements within Islam that are extremist, sprcifically wanting to violently spread Islam. It includes such groups as Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc. It is used to serapate it from normative Isalm.

 

[firedragon]

"Militant Islam" is a phrase common in American to refer to those elements of Islam that are extremist

Right. So if its an American thing, why are you asking if people discuss it in mosques? Do you even know that America has 1% Muslims, which is about 3.5 million, and there are billions of people around the world?

If you want to ask a genuine question, ask it with out any presuppositions. And I will honour your question with a decent answer. Dont impose your presuppositions on me or anything else which just looks like a question.

Please try and understand.

 

[stevecanuck]

It seems that most people have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying that Muslims didn't need to rise up and weed this out of their religion. I was saying that Christians need to do the same. We need to hear sermons in Chrisitian churches condemning racism,

Fair enough.

and we need to hear sermons in mosques condemning militant islam.

As Basil Fawlty said, "And now for the tricky bit". To condemn militancy in Islam is to directly negate the word of Allah. Here are three verses by way of example. Please tell me how Muslims are supposed to condemn militancy in the face of these:

61:4 - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall".
9:29 - "Fight those who do not believe in Allah ....".
9:111 - "Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain".

Seriously, I know your intentions are good, but you have to address this elephant in the room if you're going to tell Muslims to denounce the verbatim wishes (according to their beliefs) of Allah.

 

[Link]

You are correct stevecanuck. People who condemn groups like Hezbollah and call themselves Muslims are hypocrites and in the lowest fire.

God doesn't condemn standing against oppressors and defending oneself against them.

Only hypocrites will say Islam doesn't teach to fight in this century. We need to overthrow all dictators, and be ready to fight them if needed.

And this thought we should not overthrow monarchies and dictators and passively tolerate them is a disease inherited centuries of Muslim mindset to Ummayad fabrications. Quran teaches to overthrow oppressive governments and dictators.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Right. So if its an American thing, why are you asking if people discuss it in mosques? Do you even know that America has 1% Muslims, which is about 3.5 million, and there are billions of people around the world?

If you want to ask a genuine question, ask it with out any presuppositions. And I will honour your question with a decent answer. Dont impose your presuppositions on me or anything else which just looks like a question.

Please try and understand.

I didn't say Militant Islam was an American ideology. I said that Militant Islam was an American label for an ideology that has become a problem within Islam.

And yes, I expect Imams do to sermons against this ideology. If they don't, by their inactions, they are helping it spread. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

To condemn militancy in Islam is to directly negate the word of Allah.

I don't accept this. I think its nonsense. You have some Muslims who, in the name of Allah, as part of their Islamic beleifs, wish to use violent means to spread Islam to the world. They are in sufficient numbers that they are a threat to the world. Therefore I expect the Muslims world to respond with an outcry against them. So far? I have heard extremely little--it is spoken of a as a problem that is not Islam. That's irresponsible. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

 

[stevecanuck]

I don't accept this. I think its nonsense. You have some Muslims who, in the name of Allah, as part of their Islamic beleifs, wish to use violent means to spread Islam to the world. They are in sufficient numbers that they are a threat to the world. Therefore I expect the Muslims world to respond with an outcry against them. So far? I have heard extremely little--it is spoken of a as a problem that is not Islam. That's irresponsible. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

And just why do you think they "wish to use violent means"? You completely ignored the verses I gave you to back up my claim. Here are a few more for you to pretend don't exist:

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

 

[stevecanuck]

You are correct stevecanuck. People who condemn groups like Hezbollah and call themselves Muslims are hypocrites and in the lowest fire.

God doesn't condemn standing against oppressors and defending oneself against them.

Only hypocrites will say Islam doesn't teach to fight in this century. We need to overthrow all dictators, and be ready to fight them if needed.

And this thought we should not overthrow monarchies and dictators and passively tolerate them is a disease inherited centuries of Muslim mindset to Ummayad fabrications. Quran teaches to overthrow oppressive governments and dictators.

The Qur'an says to fight disbelievers. Period.

 

[Link]

And just why do you think they "wish to use violent means"? You completely ignored the verses I gave you to back up my claim. Here are a few more for to pretend don't exist:

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

You are correct. Not only that, but people who prefer a life of ease rather then fighting in God's way and striving in it, per Quran are Fasiqeen. Those who prefer luxury life over that of striving in his way, are transgressors that will not be guided. "is more beloved to you then God and his Messenger and striving in his way then wait for God does not guide the transgressing people"

Anyone who says in this century, all fighting verses are abrogated is also a moron or a paid CIA agent.

The only way Muslims will get out of the disgrace and afflictions they are in, is if they unite to fight of all dictators and unite as one nation under one Islamic government that get's elected and respects people right to interpret Islam freely and doesn't impose a sect upon everyone. Also, it should allow freedom of religion to the best of it's ability in general.

 

[Brinne]

That's absurd. Each "ideological structure" needs to be examined on its own merits and dealt with separately. So following your logic, you would have to consider extreme Jainism as dangerous as extreme Islam. That would be the absurd bit.

Please refer to my first post in the thread where I already addressed this. In which I stated contextual and honest criticism is warranted.

 

[Link]

Muslims have to unite under one government. No more countries and we have to set away sectarian differences in this regard.

 

[Link]

The Qur'an says to fight disbelievers. Period.

No it contextualizes why fighting disbelievers was allowed in that time and place. You want to decontextualize all that.