Criticism of Islam.

[stevecanuck]

Yeah. But still, you are intentionally conflating some empire and the Quran because you intend to.

You made things up. I mean something completely bogus. You know it.

Gratuitous denial - 100%. Supporting facts - 0%.

In other words, the usual.

 

[stevecanuck]

See, in your list you maliciously left out one verse in the middle. You do this all the time. Let me cut and paste the few verses just to show you "MISSED ONE".

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".

Where is 192? I know since you have some agenda in your mind in an Internet forum which gives you no benefit but some personal gratification.

Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.

• 2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
• 2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill
• them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
• 2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
• 2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

See the highlighted verse? Why did you miss it? Cut and paste artist.

That list was created to prove to someone else that the Qur'an contains many commands to commit violence. I have no problem discussing 192.

Read it again with 193, and you'll see they go together to tell Muslims to continue the fight until "religion should be only for Allah". So, yes, if they cease fighting and surrender to Islamic rule, then Muslims should accept their surrender. Think Hitler and Paris. Nafs el hagga.

 

[stevecanuck]

My view isn’t “peace and unicorns at all.” It’s rooted in historical materialism and criticism of colonialism - basically using historical fact and observation of changes in cultural patterns to justify the argument. Whereas yours is based in clipping scripture; which has numerous verses that support the opposite just as well.

Really? The part of your post that includes an example must have been eaten by your dog.

I would highly disagree with that there is nothing to Islam to encourage the arts and sciences. It is the scholarly tradition and jurisprudence of Islam which encouraged an analytical and scientific tradition. Scholasticism is tied to religion regardless of your opinion of religion, in that interpretation, justification, argumentation, and logic are all cornerstones of theology. This is the same in the Christian world as well as in the Buddhist traditions in E Asia. This is simply historical fact at this point.*

*Before this is misrepresented: this is not a statement that all scholastic traditions in all circumstances are born out of theology and scriptural analysis

Again, I ask you to tie any cultural/artistic/scholastic advances to just one verse in the Qur'an. Even a hint will do.

 

[stevecanuck]

You have never ever in your life read the Quran.

I suggest you save pixels by simply replying with an "IS NOT!!" to all my posts. That's all they amount to.

 

[firedragon]

That list was created to prove to someone else that the Qur'an contains many commands to commit violence. I have no problem discussing 192.

Read it again with 193, and you'll see they go together to tell Muslims to continue the fight until "religion should be only for Allah". So, yes, if they cease fighting and surrender to Islamic rule, then Muslims should accept their surrender. Think Hitler and Paris. Nafs el hagga.

Yeah. But your cut and paste intentionally omits a verse.

Also, you intentionally made up a false assumption. There is nothing about "Islamic rule". You made that up.

 

[firedragon]

I suggest you save pixels by simply replying with an "IS NOT!!" to all my posts. That's all they amount to.

Since you have studied the Quran for 20 years, which is a long long time, can you tell me who is the Quran claiming it is written for? Simple question. Anyone who has studied the Qur'an for just three months would know this.

Go ahead.

 

[stevecanuck]

Since you have studied the Quran for 20 years, which is a long long time, can you tell me who is the Quran claiming it is written for? Simple question. Anyone who has studied the Qur'an for just three months would know this.

Go ahead.

I respond to polite requests. Orders don't impress me, and they don't get a response.

 

[Brinne]

Really? The part of your post that includes an example must have been eaten by your dog.



Again, I ask you to tie any cultural/artistic/scholastic advances to just one verse in the Qur'an. Even a hint will do.

If you want a verse; you can ask. 2:190, Al-Baqarah speaks of anything beyond self-defense as being transgressive behavior. Verse 61 of Al-Anfal says to make peace with those that wish for peace. And Al-Baqara 256 stated there shall be no compulsion in religion.

The evidence is the conception of the Quran? Since historically it birthed an era of Arab literature and poetry that was unparalleled in the peninsula prior. And from a value of literacy and jurisprudence comes a scholastic tradition. This isn’t even theological this is just the historical development of Arab culture.

I would also remind you as to your last point the thread is about Islam as a whole — including all the Hadith and works and writings following the Quran. This is not simply a criticism of the Quran.

 

[England my lionheart]

So evidence or data for your own posts Doreent have anything to do with your own posts? Nice.

my posts had nothing to do with war or being religious or not.

 

[firedragon]

I respond to polite requests. Orders don't impress me, and they don't get a response.

Say that you dont know the response instead. But, your response was an amazing dodge technique. Must teach it.

 

[firedragon]

my posts had nothing to do with war or being religious or not.

No problem. What ever your posts are and what ever you wish to propagate, try to put research into it.

 

[England my lionheart]

No problem. What ever your posts are and what ever you wish to propagate, try to put research into it.

I have and no wish to propagate,it’s just history tagged with the original question,”which Islam are we talking about”.

 

[firedragon]

I have and no wish to propagate,it’s just history tagged with the original question,”which Islam are we talking about”.

So now the question is "which Islam"? Is that your topic?

No problem.

See, I get that there are many ideas about Islam, just as in any other idea or ideology. But what ever it is, what ever version or variance you know of, criticism is done constructively.

 

[England my lionheart]

So now the question is "which Islam"? Is that your topic?

No problem.

See, I get that there are many ideas about Islam, just as in any other idea or ideology. But what ever it is, what ever version or variance you know of, criticism is done constructively.

Ok,my criticism of Islam is that nobody can point to a single version or variance and say “this is Islam” and back it up,of course Muhammad did say that of the 73 sects it would be the one like him and the companions.

 

[firedragon]

Ok,my criticism of Islam is that nobody can point to a single version or variance and say “this is Islam” and back it up,of course Muhammad did say that of the 73 sects it would be the one like him and the companions.

No problem.

Now you said "Muhammed said" right? Where did you get that from? why do you believe it to be true?

 

[stevecanuck]

If you want a verse; you can ask. 2:190, Al-Baqarah speaks of anything beyond self-defense as being transgressive behavior. Verse 61 of Al-Anfal says to make peace with those that wish for peace. And Al-Baqara 256 stated there shall be no compulsion in religion.

The evidence is the conception of the Quran? Since historically it birthed an era of Arab literature and poetry that was unparalleled in the peninsula prior. And from a value of literacy and jurisprudence comes a scholastic tradition. This isn’t even theological this is just the historical development of Arab culture.

I would also remind you as to your last point the thread is about Islam as a whole — including all the Hadith and works and writings following the Quran. This is not simply a criticism of the Quran.

None of that had anything to do with the Qur'an encouraging the arts etc. Again, it was individuals that created advancements, not the religion. There is nothing in the Qur'an to either encourage or discourage it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Say that you dont know the response instead. But, your response was an amazing dodge technique. Must teach it.

Please say please. Then we'll talk.

 

[Brinne]

None of that had anything to do with the Qur'an encouraging the arts etc. Again, it was individuals that created advancements, not the religion. There is nothing in the Qur'an to either encourage or discourage it.

I'm not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion. The study of the Quran and the nature of its literary style led to golden age of Arab culture. Surely if it was this "barbaric backwards" piece of literature it wouldn't have been a driving force behind a revolution Arabic culture; from literature to the sciences.

And again, surely the conditions in the Arabian peninsula would have gotten worse if your conclusion was true.

I'll say again, the focus of the thread isn't solely on the Quran. It's on the whole of Islam; so my point is that the advent of Islam led to a revolution of the arts, sciences, and jurisprudence in the Arabian peninsula. This events are explicitly tied to the rise of Islam, as prior such advancements and state building were not present in the largely disunited nomadic region of the Arabian peninsula.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

I'm not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion. The study of the Quran and the nature of its literary style led to golden age of Arab culture. Surely if it was this "barbaric backwards" piece of literature it wouldn't have been a driving force behind a revolution Arabic culture; from literature to the sciences.

And again, surely the conditions in the Arabian peninsula would have gotten worse if your conclusion was true.

I'll say again, the focus of the thread isn't solely on the Quran. It's on the whole of Islam; so my point is that the advent of Islam led to a revolution of the arts, sciences, and jurisprudence in the Arabian peninsula. This events are explicitly tied to the rise of Islam, as prior such advancements and state building were not present in the largely disunited nomadic region of the Arabian peninsula.

Allah didn't have time to tell prophets all because of life is short . Allah would of said ''once the outsiders be good we must be equally as good as to not shame ourselves and become their history'' .

 

[firedragon]

Please say please. Then we'll talk.

Its alright. No thanks.