Cross or Upright Stake

[Subduction Zone]

ah , you expect us to hand feed you all the answers .could ya maybe read the book?

You just keep tacitly admitting that you have nothing. I graciously accept your admission of defeat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

subduction zone​

I have a problem for you . how were the nails that were pounded in removed from the wood that held his hands and feet?
me, I 'm thinking I know. but ,go ahead ,please enlighten us.

That is an easy one. They weren't. Once again, you need to read up on Roman Crucifixion. Also if you read up on it you would realize that a mere thief would not be crucified. Crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. Only certain crimes qualified.

 

[YoursTrue]

John 19:17 So they took Jesus, and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha.

One visible difference between a pole and a cross is a pole is like a 1-D line. While a line, by definition, needs two points to become defined; good and evil defines the law pole. Law is one way; linear pole, based on the two points of good and evil. The two thieves were under law and may have been crucified on poles. Jesus did not break any Roman law; Pilot washed his hands and let the mob decide. Jesus died based on mob rule; irrationality. This was unique and showed respect.

The cross, on the other hand, is in 2-D space, with four elements, or two sets of two points; two lines or two poles like an (x,y) grid. One pole was the vertical or the y axis; law, with Jesus also having an x-axis. Jesus and the cross was more than just law, but also faith and fate.

The Christian sign of the cross, used while praying, starts at the mind eye; above and between the eyes; Father. The bottom of the y-pole is next, at the heart/solar plexus. This is the son. The Holy Spirit, which was to be left behind, was the new x-axis or x-pole, left to right shoulder. The cross symbolized an addendum to the classic spirit. The spirit of truth was more that just blind 1-D obedience to law. The Holy Spirit, as the spirit of truth, was more advanced thinking than blind obedience to law. Blind obedience makes you linear. Whereas truth gives more of a sense of meaning and reasoning; 2-D thought and cause and effect.

The late Psychologist Carl Jung had the theory that all humans have four psychological functions; intellect, emotion, intuition and sensory. These help orientate us to reality. We all have these four, but different people will use them in different orders. This different order accounts for the variety of types of adaptation.

In terms of the cross, intuition is the head, intellect is the right shoulder, sensory is the heart/foot; touches the earth, the emotion is the left shoulder. The 1-D pole or y-pole of law is intuition and sensory (or know by heart). What was added to make the x-pole or x-axis of the cross was emotion and intellect; spirit of truth.

If you were only intuitive and sensory you would sense and have an intuitive sense of what to do next, but without knowing why other than it feels right or wrong. In a sense, law of good and evil was sort of a replacement for instinct, structuring behavior, but without have to know any good explanation; blind obedience of law as formerly had been for instinct.

The Holy Spirit brought more of the brain to the table and allowed one to ask why, allowing more access to two additional functions. It was no longer; one size fits all, but more in terms of shades of gray, which takes more nuisance of feeling and thought.

The death of Jesus at the hand of the mob, was also symbolic of the end of the age of the gods. Human had controlled the fate of the Son of God and even had him killed. The gods had been the means to structure the mind but this approach blurred sensory reality. Law was way to find new footing, at a time when the whims of the gods, in reality; the blur, would appear more statistical and less structured as cause and effect. With the age of the Gods, sacrificed, the two extra functions of intellect and emotion added another dimension; x-axis to consciousness, on a larger scale. It was the update from BC to AD, played out in symbolism, spread out over time.

Poor Carl Jung -- I used to read him before I became a Christian and "looking for things" -- the guy set himself up in an orgone box, remember that? They think he went crazy, poor guy thinkin' about things...

 

[YoursTrue]

That is an easy one. They weren't. Once again, you need to read up on Roman Crucifixion. Also if you read up on it you would realize that a mere thief would not be crucified. Crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. Only certain crimes qualified.

Actually there are differences of translation. Maybe it doesn't matter much to you but it does to some who are interested in these things.
The Greek word used for criminal literally means one who engages in doing bad or evil. According to what I read yes, the Romans are said not to execute simple crooks or thieves. Yet the word robber from the Greek may include robbing by violence and at times could refer to revolutionaries. In fact, translations differ in parts based on the translator and their reasoning or logic.
New International Version
Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

New Living Translation
Two revolutionaries were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.
Strong's Greek: 3027. λῃστής (léstés) -- Robber, bandit, brigand You might want to look that up insofar as the Greek term goes.

Those executed next to Jesus were not simple street thieves as if they stole from something like Walmart and just walked out the store with it. The Greek words imply something else, although some do say robbers. And that is correct, it appears the Romans did not execute plain old robbers. But rather more dangerous criminal types, those who were threats in some form or another to the state or robbed by violence. Have a good one, by the way.

 

[cataway]

That is an easy one. They weren't. Once again, you need to read up on Roman Crucifixion. Also if you read up on it you would realize that a mere thief would not be crucified. Crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. Only certain crimes qualified.

and yet the Bible does say Jesus was fasten to a tree. (acts 5:30)

Mark 15:25​

It was now the third hour, and they nailed him to the stake.

Matthew 27:35​

When they had nailed him to the stake, they distributed his outer garments by casting lots,

John 19:18​

There they nailed him to the stake alongside two other men, one on each side, with Jesus in the middle.

Luke 24:20​

and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they nailed him to the stake.

typically , those nails are for ever .there not made to come out . so why use nails ? there is one good reason .
what does the read of the Roman Crucifixion tell you?
we know Jesus was taken down and put in a tomb . Bible does not say what happen to the other 2 . for all we know they could of been carried away on the pole they were nails to and thrown off a cliff.

how did the nails get removed ?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually there are differences of translation. Maybe it doesn't matter much to you but it does to some who are interested in these things.
The Greek word used for criminal literally means one who engages in doing bad or evil. According to what I read yes, the Romans are said not to execute simple crooks or thieves. Yet the word robber from the Greek may include robbing by violence and at times could refer to revolutionaries. In fact, translations differ in parts based on the translator and their reasoning or logic.
New International Version
Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

New Living Translation
Two revolutionaries were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.
Strong's Greek: 3027. λῃστής (léstés) -- Robber, bandit, brigand You might want to look that up insofar as the Greek term goes.

Those executed next to Jesus were not simple street thieves as if they stole from something like Walmart and just walked out the store with it. The Greek words imply something else, although some do say robbers. And that is correct, it appears the Romans did not execute plain old robbers. But rather more dangerous criminal types, those who were threats in some form or another to the state or robbed by violence. Have a good one, by the way.

What makes you think that the Bible account is accurate?

 

[Subduction Zone]

and yet the Bible does say Jesus was fasten to a tree. (acts 5:30)

Mark 15:25​

It was now the third hour, and they nailed him to the stake.

Matthew 27:35​

When they had nailed him to the stake, they distributed his outer garments by casting lots,

John 19:18​

There they nailed him to the stake alongside two other men, one on each side, with Jesus in the middle.

Luke 24:20​

and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they nailed him to the stake.

typically , those nails are for ever .there not made to come out . so why use nails ? there is one good reason .
what does the read of the Roman Crucifixion tell you?
we know Jesus was taken down and put in a tomb . Bible does not say what happen to the other 2 . for all we know they could of been carried away on the pole they were nails to and thrown off a cliff.

how did the nails get removed ?

You are cherry picking interpretations now. In fact in your first example I cannot even find a version that says that.

You may belong to a rather odd cult of Christianity. It would not be the first time that a group of Christians abused the Bible for their own purposes.

You do not seem to know how to quote properly either. When you quote a source you should include a link. For example, and these are not all of the examples given:

"
New International Version
It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.

New Living Translation
It was nine o’clock in the morning when they crucified him.

English Standard Version
And it was the third hour when they crucified him.

Berean Standard Bible
It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

King James Bible
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

New King James Version
Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

New American Standard Bible
Now it was the third hour when they crucified Him.

NASB 1995
It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

NASB 1977
And it was the third hour when they crucified Him.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

Amplified Bible
It was the third hour (9:00 a.m.) when they crucified Him.

Christian Standard Bible
Now it was nine in the morning when they crucified him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now it was nine in the morning when they crucified Him."

Mark 15:25 - The Crucifixion

It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

biblehub.com

And here are even more:

Mark 15:25 Parallel: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

None of them mention a stake. By the way, you never supported your earlier claims. Should I remind you what you said?

 

[YoursTrue]

What makes you think that the Bible account is accurate?

The subject you brought in question is about who gets executed by the Romans. They were not simply thieves. According to what I read, the Romans did not execute mere thieves. So on that point you are right. The Greek word signifying robber though can also indicate violence along with the action. And treasonous behavior, warranting the death penalty.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are cherry picking interpretations now. In fact in your first example I cannot even find a version that says that.

You may belong to a rather odd cult of Christianity. It would not be the first time that a group of Christians abused the Bible for their own purposes.

You do not seem to know how to quote properly either. When you quote a source you should include a link. For example, and these are not all of the examples given:

"
New International Version
It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.

New Living Translation
It was nine o’clock in the morning when they crucified him.

English Standard Version
And it was the third hour when they crucified him.

Berean Standard Bible
It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

Berean Literal Bible
And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

King James Bible
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

New King James Version
Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

New American Standard Bible
Now it was the third hour when they crucified Him.

NASB 1995
It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

NASB 1977
And it was the third hour when they crucified Him.

Legacy Standard Bible
Now it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.

Amplified Bible
It was the third hour (9:00 a.m.) when they crucified Him.

Christian Standard Bible
Now it was nine in the morning when they crucified him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now it was nine in the morning when they crucified Him."

Mark 15:25 - The Crucifixion

It was the third hour when they crucified Him.

biblehub.com

And here are even more:

Mark 15:25 Parallel: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

None of them mention a stake. By the way, you never supported your earlier claims. Should I remind you what you said?

One point at a time. The criminals next to Jesus were not like sneaking stuff from the food market, according to Greek terminology and Roman classification of crimes warranting execution.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The subject you brought in question is about who gets executed by the Romans. They were not simply thieves. According to what I read, the Romans did not execute mere thieves. So on that point you are right. The Greek word signifying robber though can also indicate violence along with the action. And treasonous behavior, warranting the death penalty.

Then at best the Bible is very poorly written or translated on that matter. Usually it took an act that was seen as going against the Roman Empire itself.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One point at a time. The criminals next to Jesus were not like sneaking stuff from the food market, according to Greek terminology and Roman classification of crimes warranting execution.

How are you going to support that claim?

 

[wellwisher]

bla bal bal to say what ?

I forgot one connected symbolism, which are the two thieves, on each side of Jesus. They represent the two darkside of law; good and evil, with both falling short of righteousness due to the law.The repentant thief understands the law, but he cannot always control this impulses, so he sins. But deep down he is good, and is willing to accept the dire consequences for his action.

The other thief is more like a sociopath, who does not see how his actions were wrong and how he violates others. This symbolizes the self righteous, who will persecute by the law. He tries to get Jesus to change the law so evil becomes defined as good. The law is suppose to have a happy ending for all, but the self righteous enjoys the suffering of others; good and evil. Jesus was good, yet scapegoated by the self righteous, as though that was good by the law.

Jesus in the middle, of this dark side duality, stemming from law, accepts the compulsive repentant, before the self righteous even though the self righteous appears, on the surface, to be more connected to the good side of law; Pharisees.

The cross of Jesus, by having the added x-pole or x-axis for thought and feeling, is what allowed this nuance to be seen. There is a downside of law and this is why one is not justify by law. Rather the righteous man shall lives by faith; sweet spot between. It is the big heart of the repentant sinner and the good heart of those who lovingly obey; Holy Spirit of truth; mind, and forgiveness of sins; big heart. .

 

[cataway]

i can give only one reason why there would be any sort of cross member to be on the poles . that would be to aid in the standing of a pole with the weight of a man on one side .
Jesus would of been laid on the pole stretched out and fasten with nails ,hands and feet. when the pole is then raised it will flip/turn over, so that the man who was on the top side,looking up at the clouds, would then be on the bottom side looking at the dirt .
a cross member near the bottom of the pole would serve as a handle for two men to have a way to keep it from flipping . the cross bar would have a controlling function . it would also give aid in the standing as those two men would have something to push against ,helping to stand the off centered load.
its possible that the cross bar could of been removable to keep any would be rescuers a convenient way to lift the pole up out of the hole to then lay it down .

 

[YoursTrue]

Then at best the Bible is very poorly written or translated on that matter. Usually it took an act that was seen as going against the Roman Empire itself.

You are obviously misinterpreting. But by this time in reading your posts and remonstrations, I'm used to them. Once you get the point about where you're wrong, you then move on to more unfounded opinions and objections without admitting how you were wrong. But it was interesting checking out your objections about the two criminals executed next to Jesus. Thanks for that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Then at best the Bible is very poorly written or translated on that matter. Usually it took an act that was seen as going against the Roman Empire itself.

Or, as the explanations go, a violent criminal thievery. I see you'll say anything to contradict what the Bible says. I cannot predict the future about what happens to people in reference to those who keep subverting now what's true, because people change sometimes, but I do believe what the Bible says is true and one day the earth will be free of strife and criminals. And those alive will be happy beyond their expectations now. Bye again for now.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are obviously misinterpreting. But by this time in reading your posts and remonstrations, I'm used to them. Once you get the point about where you're wrong, you then move on to more unfounded opinions and objections without admitting how you were wrong. But it was interesting checking out your objections about the two criminals executed next to Jesus. Thanks for that.

Nope, more projection. The Gospels are all anonymous and were written by non-eyewitnesses over a generation and usually two generations after the crucifixion of Jesus. A lot of myth can enter into stories in that period of time. There is no good reason to trust the Gospels when it comes to details of any sort.

Here is your problem, crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. One does not use the ultimate punishment for minor crimes such as thievery.

 

[cataway]

Nope, more projection. The Gospels are all anonymous and were written by non-eyewitnesses over a generation and usually two generations after the crucifixion of Jesus. A lot of myth can enter into stories in that period of time. There is no good reason to trust the Gospels when it comes to details of any sort.

Here is your problem, crucifixion was the ultimate punishment. One does not use the ultimate punishment for minor crimes such as thievery.

LOL you complain about projection then you use projection to try to prove a point . carry on

 

[Subduction Zone]

Or, as the explanations go, a violent criminal thievery. I see you'll say anything to contradict what the Bible says. I cannot predict the future about what happens to people in reference to those who keep subverting now what's true, because people change sometimes, but I do believe what the Bible says is true and one day the earth will be free of strife and criminals. And those alive will be happy beyond their expectations now. Bye again for now.

Okay, I double checked. It appears that even though it was the "ultimate punishment" they also used it on "low life criminals". For example an escaped slave that stole would be crucified:

Why Romans Crucified People (The Story Beyond the Cross & Nails)

Roman crucifixion was more than a cross and nails story. Learn the process and methods the Romans deployed in crucifixion and why it was such an effective punishment.

ehrmanblog.org

So I will take back my objection to the thieves that accompanied Jesus. There could have been two such characters. But I am rather amazed at why no one has checked to try to support their claims about taking people down from the cross. It usually was not a problem at all. If someone was honest enough to admit that they did not know instead of making claims and never supplying sources I would have explained a long time ago.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL you complain about projection then you use projection to try to prove a point . carry on

How was that projection? What I said about the Gospels is accurate. But then you do not appear to have ever have studied the Bible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

i can give only one reason why there would be any sort of cross member to be on the poles . that would be to aid in the standing of a pole with the weight of a man on one side .
Jesus would of been laid on the pole stretched out and fasten with nails ,hands and feet. when the pole is then raised it will flip/turn over, so that the man who was on the top side,looking up at the clouds, would then be on the bottom side looking at the dirt .
a cross member near the bottom of the pole would serve as a handle for two men to have a way to keep it from flipping . the cross bar would have a controlling function . it would also give aid in the standing as those two men would have something to push against ,helping to stand the off centered load.
its possible that the cross bar could of been removable to keep any would be rescuers a convenient way to lift the pole up out of the hole to then lay it down .

The idea of crucifixion was a long slow death. The cross bad may have enabled the victim to hold himself up better than if his hands were tied above his head. The cross member is known to have existed. In fact when people were force to bear their cross that would have almost certainly have been the cross member. Not the entire cross. The upright part of the cross had to be firmly in the ground and if one digs a hole and puts an upright in it they are usually a bit wobbly unless one takes quite some time tamping soil down around it. It makes more sense to have permanent uprights and then the temporary crossbar added at the time of execution.