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Darwin's Illusion

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Your definition of "fact" seems pretty broad....

Logical analysis of data (based on causality) that is collected through sense perception establishes the perceived reality/facts.

Collected data through sense perception doesn’t establish a sufficient disclosure of objective reality that independently lies outside the limits of awareness/knowledge.

The data never establishes a reality. Logic does through logical evaluation of the data.

The data is relative/limited because of the limited capacity of the senses but Logic in not subject to the limitation of sense perception and allows broader understanding of reality.

We exist in a world of relative entities, it’s difficult to understand the absolute but we can logically understand that all relative entities must be grounded in the absolute.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In life all life is present. By biology it's owned life body healthy or not healthy.

Science tries to transmit an attack on biology to study if they change its biology claiming it must be how evolution of the species occurred.

So has the ape subject yet converted it's genetics by the human scientist into a human yet?

Didn't you invent a mind contact program knowing it shouldn't exist or be practiced. As only a very small amount of humans who owned the ability as compared to everyone who didn't?

So if you transmitted said program first your program is in contact mode first then you used the program to increase biology attack?

I think father says it's what you did claiming AI invented evolution.

How come I got brain burnt then if you are correct as just another human?

In consciousness you claim you're correct as you wanted to cause it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If one human couldn't subject any other one human to their idiocy egotism belief then what do you believe you are?

Not a hu man?

Did you ever realise expressing egotism is a want by self purpose one human yet it needs the support of the same type of human thinkers to gain a group. Humans only to quote my human story is most believable as a God theme? My human theme only.

As who asked you to look at any other body and subject it to a humans reason?

Just humans did.

You seem to ignore that natural human spirituality had to try to reason against humans using egotism plus group egotism.

As natural human is first....not science.

Created creation is first in any humans scientific theory.

Another aspect egotists destroyer thinkers ignore.

As claiming when creation never existed means you express a human thought that you don't want it to exist first.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
I’ve seen some earlier discussion about consciousness. The problem of consciousness remains puzzling and controversial.

Science can establish that life/consciousness exists but beyond that it doesn’t provide a definition or an explanation of how life or consciousness may have possibly emerged from nonliving matter. It’s beyond the jurisdiction of science.

Consciousness is a controversial concept. It cannot be dealt with directly, but we can study the manifestations or indications of consciousness.

It can be argued that intelligence (with respect to rational analysis that translates sense data to adaptive behaviors within an environment or context) is a manifestation of some sort of consciousness.

If we find evidence of intelligence, then we may consider the possibility that the organism has some sort of consciousness. Otherwise, if the organism itself is not "conscious", then these manifestations can be attributed to an external conscious intelligence, similar to the example of artificial intelligence (AI) being a manifestation of external (human) intelligence responsible for the programming.

Indicative evidence of intelligence manifestations including decision-making, problem-solving, quorum sensing, associative learning, adaptive behavior, cooperative behavior in populations, have been found at a microbial level in organisms such as Protozoa, Algae, Bacteria and Viruses.

In fact, intelligence manifestations are also found in nonliving matter at the atomic and molecular level.

- "Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought"
"We see now that bacteria are, in their way, big thinkers, and by knowing how they 'feel' about the environment around them, we can look at new and different ways to work with them."
Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought -- ScienceDaily

- Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart
Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart (evo2.org)

- How bacteria choose a lifestyle
How bacteria choose a lifestyle | Nature

- How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?
How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?: Cell

-The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate?
Editorial: The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate? - PMC (nih.gov)

- Brainy bacteria could revolutionize healthcare
Brainy bacteria could revolutionise healthcare | Research | The Guardian

- "Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly ‘intelligent’ viruses"
“Viruses are very intelligent. They can think. They do things that we do not expect. They adapt to the environment. They change themselves in order to survive,”
Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly 'intelligent' viruses - USC News

- Microbial intelligence
Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia

- A Portuguese University "Universityof São Paulo", puplished a study "Intelligence in Matter", that investigates the intelligent non-random behavior at the atomic and molecular level.

"atomic intelligence can be defined as inversely proportional to the entropy of a system. The higher the entropy of a system the more random is its behavior and hence less is its intrinsic internal intelligence. The lower the entropy less is the random behavior which is equivalent to molecular formation in the case of an atom. Hence the ability of an element A to form molecules or compounds with other elements is a measure of atom A’s intelligence."

"what is pertinent in this discussion is to appreciate the existence of intelligence at the fundamental level of atoms which can be termed as internal intelligence."

The study concluded that the existence of internal intelligence at the atomic and molecular level is evidence of the absence of an external intelligence. but is that a logical conclusion? can we conclude that the existence of internal intelligence in an "artificial intelligence system", is evidence of the absence of an external (human) intelligence?

Intelligence-in-Matter.pdf (usp.br)

In conclusion, intelligence of a complex living organism is one of the manifestations of internal consciousness. On the other hand, intelligence of a microorganism, a nonliving system (AI) or atomic intelligence (at the atomic and molecular level) can be attributed to external consciousness. (Consciousness may not be an intrinsic character of the second group but only a manifestation of an external consciousness).

We live in a world where everything we can observe is a manifestation of intelligence, in the cosmos, in living organisms, even at the atomic and molecular level. We're used to order. It's the norm. We may be amazed to see an act of a magician that appears to break the norm but In fact, chaos and randomness should not be a surprise at all. The real surprise is the rigid order (norm) that controls every aspect of the world in which we live.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’ve seen some earlier discussion about consciousness. The problem of consciousness remains puzzling and controversial.

Science can establish that life/consciousness exists but beyond that it doesn’t provide a definition or an explanation of how life or consciousness may have possibly emerged from nonliving matter. It’s beyond the jurisdiction of science.

Consciousness is a controversial concept. It cannot be dealt with directly, but we can study the manifestations or indications of consciousness.

It can be argued that intelligence (with respect to rational analysis that translates sense data to adaptive behaviors within an environment or context) is a manifestation of some sort of consciousness.

If we find evidence of intelligence, then we may consider the possibility that the organism has some sort of consciousness. Otherwise, if the organism itself is not "conscious", then these manifestations can be attributed to an external conscious intelligence, similar to the example of artificial intelligence (AI) being a manifestation of external (human) intelligence responsible for the programming.

Indicative evidence of intelligence manifestations including decision-making, problem-solving, quorum sensing, associative learning, adaptive behavior, cooperative behavior in populations, have been found at a microbial level in organisms such as Protozoa, Algae, Bacteria and Viruses.

In fact, intelligence manifestations are also found in nonliving matter at the atomic and molecular level.

- "Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought"
"We see now that bacteria are, in their way, big thinkers, and by knowing how they 'feel' about the environment around them, we can look at new and different ways to work with them."
Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought -- ScienceDaily

- Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart
Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart (evo2.org)

- How bacteria choose a lifestyle
How bacteria choose a lifestyle | Nature

- How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?
How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?: Cell

-The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate?
Editorial: The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate? - PMC (nih.gov)

- Brainy bacteria could revolutionize healthcare
Brainy bacteria could revolutionise healthcare | Research | The Guardian

- "Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly ‘intelligent’ viruses"
“Viruses are very intelligent. They can think. They do things that we do not expect. They adapt to the environment. They change themselves in order to survive,”
Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly 'intelligent' viruses - USC News

- Microbial intelligence
Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia

- A Portuguese University "Universityof São Paulo", puplished a study "Intelligence in Matter", that investigates the intelligent non-random behavior at the atomic and molecular level.

"atomic intelligence can be defined as inversely proportional to the entropy of a system. The higher the entropy of a system the more random is its behavior and hence less is its intrinsic internal intelligence. The lower the entropy less is the random behavior which is equivalent to molecular formation in the case of an atom. Hence the ability of an element A to form molecules or compounds with other elements is a measure of atom A’s intelligence."

"what is pertinent in this discussion is to appreciate the existence of intelligence at the fundamental level of atoms which can be termed as internal intelligence."

The study concluded that the existence of internal intelligence at the atomic and molecular level is evidence of the absence of an external intelligence. but is that a logical conclusion? can we conclude that the existence of internal intelligence in an "artificial intelligence system", is evidence of the absence of an external (human) intelligence?

Intelligence-in-Matter.pdf (usp.br)

In conclusion, intelligence of a complex living organism is one of the manifestations of internal consciousness. On the other hand, intelligence of a microorganism, a nonliving system (AI) or atomic intelligence (at the atomic and molecular level) can be attributed to external consciousness. (Consciousness may not be an intrinsic character of the second group but only a manifestation of an external consciousness).

We live in a world where everything we can observe is a manifestation of intelligence, in the cosmos, in living organisms, even at the atomic and molecular level. We're used to order. It's the norm. We may be amazed to see an act of a magician that appears to break the norm but In fact, chaos and randomness should not be a surprise at all. The real surprise is the rigid order (norm) that controls every aspect of the world in which we live.
Some good points here, but "intelligence" can be a slippery term, and its relationship to consciousness or conscious choice even more so. It's not clear that bacteria, slime molds or ants are aware of their decision making prowess, or even that the're making decisions, much less goal directed decisions.

Most of these 'intelligent' decisions are likely mediated by unconscious algorithms, naturally selected for, just like anatomical, physiological, or psychological features. They're likely no more cognitive or aware than a self driving car is.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
How genetically similar are humans to chimpanzees? What is the significance of the similarity?

Under dogmatic control

Stopped taking this post seriously right there...
, scientific findings are typically interpreted to fit the presuppositions.
What are the presuppositions of actual science?
Creation/ID "science" has a presupposition that is in direct contradiction to the very nature of science.
But you know that...
-Total amount of chimpanzee DNA sequence analyzed is about 3 million bp, only about 0.001 of the chimpanzee genome.
You're either very ignorant and behind the times or just a ... um.. fibber...
Where did you paraphrase this from? AiG?

From 2005:
Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome

Our results confirm many earlier observations, but notably challenge some previous claims based on more limited data. The
genome-wide data also allow some questions to be addressed for the first time.(Here and throughout, we refer to chimpanzee–human
comparison as representing hominids and mouse–rat comparison as representing murids—of course, each pair covers only a subset of the clade.) The main findings include:
. Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23% between copies of the human and chimpanzee genome, with 1.06%
or less corresponding to fixed divergence between the species. [Tell us how that could have been determined if only "Total amount of chimpanzee DNA sequence analyzed is about 3 million bp, only about 0.001 of the chimpanzee genome." ]
. Regional variation in nucleotide substitution rates is conserved between the hominid and murid genomes, but rates in subtelomeric
regions are disproportionately elevated in the hominids.
. Substitutions at CpG dinucleotides, which constitute one-quarter of all observed substitutions, occur at more similar rates in male and
female germ lines than non-CpG substitutions.
. Insertion and deletion (indel) events are fewer in number than single-nucleotide substitutions, but result in ,1.5% of the euchromatic sequence in each species being lineage-specific.
. There are notable differences in the rate of transposable element insertions: short interspersed elements (SINEs) have been threefold more active in humans, whereas chimpanzees have acquired two new families of retroviral elements....

And taking Jeffy Tomkins at his word seals the deal - you are not a serious person and have misrepresented yourself and the material.

Typical:
Another study on February 20, 2013 by Jeffrey P. Tomkins concluded that the average similarity is 70% “Comprehensive analysis of chimpanzee and human chromosomes reveals average DNA similarity of 70%. ...
Obviously such research cannot be published in a mainstream Journal.
Yes - mainstream publications have legitimate peer review and would have found Tomkins incompetence and lies very quickly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/junkscienc...n_chimp_similarity_update_how_tomkins_did_it/
roohif

It’s important to understand that the 98.8% similarity at the genetic level is misleading with respect to its significance.
Then why do creationists like you make such a big deal out of it?
It serves no purpose but deceiving the uninformed reader specially in light of the other studies showing similarity of the human genome with the genome of other different species such as the mouse.

A study was published in nature in 2002 concluded that the analysis of mouse genome sequence showed that 99% of the genes have direct counterparts in humans.
Human biology by proxy - Nature
Direct counterparts between mammalian genomes - IMAGINE THAT!!! Funny - you did not post the % similarity to the human genome, which would have been instrumental in making your 'case', no?

Hmmm...
We don’t see much emphasis on this significant similarity. Apparently, a human is a lot different than a mouse. The similarity is misleading, the billions of codes contained in an organism genome, is only the beginning of the story. The real story unfolds in the gene expression.
"Billions of codes"??? LOL!
All trillions of cells of different types that compose the human body, contains exact same 3 billion DNA base ...
Paraphrasing without attribution is dishonest.

80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans.
Citations?
Cool sleight of hand there, gomer:

"80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans."

I find 'debate' with disingenuous misrepresenters of relevant facts and poor lit review skills to be counter productive.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
How genetically similar are humans to chimpanzees? What is the significance of the similarity?...
The famous 98.8% similarity between humans and chimpanzees was the conclusion of a study published in 2002. Here is how the conclusion was drawn.

Interesting. Many earlier studies show the same.
-The human genome contains about 3.2 billion base pairs, the chimpanzee is about 3.0 billion bp.

-Total amount of chimpanzee DNA sequence analyzed is about 3 million bp, only about 0.001 of the chimpanzee genome.

-Only two thirds of the 0.001 could be unambiguously aligned to DNA sequences in humans.

-28% of the total amount of sequence was excluded from the analysis (not aligned to human DNA). Another 7% of the chimpanzee sequences showed no similarity in the human genome. 35% was excluded from the analysis of the 0.001 chimpanzee DNA sequence.

- After the exclusion of the 35%, total of 8,859 sequence pairs encompassing 1,944,162 nucleotides in the chimpanzee genome remained for analysis. (0.00065 of the chimpanzee genome)

-The program Blat was used for the analysis, which is programmed on the basis that evolution is true (database searching models depend upon the evolutionary insights of the Dayhoff model)

-The analysis identified the sequence differences (insertions, substitutions, deletions and duplications).

- Differences such as Insertions and deletions were ignored. Only substitutional differences of 1.24% was used to conclude that the average DNA sequence difference is 1.24%, then it was concluded that the average similarity is 100-1.24= 98.8%

- The calculated percentage of similarity is neither objective nor accurate. The conclusion precedes the experiment. All findings had to fit the presupposition.

Genomewide Comparison of DNA Sequences between Humans and Chimpanzees
Funny - it seems that you completely missed the point of the study - not surprising. The analysis was NOT to gauge the % similarity between humans and chimps comparing the entire genome of each. Admittedly, the title is misleading, but one need only read the abstract and intro to see what they were really doing - you present their limited dataset as some kind of "admission." IPity that people like you just paraphrase other creationists or do keyword searches in the hopes that nobody you present your amazing findings to will know any better.

Sad.



Abstract
A total of 8,859 DNA sequences encompassing ∼1.9 million base pairs of the chimpanzee genome were sequenced and compared to corresponding human DNA sequences.

First line of the abstract clearly indicates that they DID NOT set out to compare the entire genomes! Did you just copy-paste your "analysis" from some YEC blog or something?

Although the average sequence difference is low (1.24%), the extent of changes is markedly different among sites and types of substitutions. Whereas ∼15% of all CpG sites have experienced changes between humans and chimpanzees, owing to a 23-fold excess of transitions and a 7-fold excess of transversions, substitutions at other sites vary in frequency, between 0.1% and 0.5%. If the nucleotide diversity in the common ancestral species of humans and chimpanzees is assumed to have been about fourfold higher than in contemporary humans, all possible comparisons between autosomes and X and Y chromosomes result in estimates of the ratio between male and female mutation rates of ∼3. Thus, the relative time spent in the male and female germlines may be a major determinant of the overall accumulation of nucleotide substitutions. However, since the extent of divergence differs significantly among autosomes, additional unknown factors must also influence the accumulation of substitutions in the human genome.​

My gosh, they were looking at patterns of substitutions - did you not read even the abstract?


Introduction
Chimpanzees and humans are estimated to have shared a common ancestor only 4.6–6.2 million years ago (Chen and Li 2001). Thus, for a study of the accumulation of nucleotide substitutions in the human genome, chimpanzees offer the most relevant nonhuman comparison, for at least two reasons. First, the close relationship between the sequences compared minimizes the risk that multiple substitutions at the same sites will obscure the results. Second, because of the short divergence time, processes that may influence the accumulation of DNA sequence changes—for example, regional differences in recombination and mutation rates—can be assumed not to have changed drastically since the two species shared a common ancestor.

Early comparative studies of the human and chimpanzee genomes (King and Wilson 1975; Sibley and Ahlquist 1984; Goodman et al. 1990; Bailey et al. 1991) established that the extent of DNA sequence difference is on the order of 1.6%.

Wow - clearly, you did not read this paper at all - or maybe the science jargon was too much for you? Or maybe you just purposefully engaged in deception to push your silly YEC agenda?

What was it you heroically asserted? Ah yes:

"The famous 98.8% similarity between humans and chimpanzees was the conclusion of a study published in 2002. "​

Yet in the paper you pretend demolishes (somehow) the % similarity of human/chimp genomes (not knowing, comically, that it is actually the patterns of shared mutations that is more informative in assessing phylogeny than mere similarity) indicates similar % differences as early as 1975!!!


Since that time, little additional knowledge about the pattern of divergence has accumulated. Only recently, a study of 53 intergenic autosomal regions in the chimpanzee genome (Chen and Li 2001) indicated that the extent of divergence is only 1.24%. However, different regions of the human genome differ in base composition (Bernardi 1995) and in extent of divergence from the chimpanzee (Dorit et al. 1995; Glusman et al. 2000). Therefore, sampling of a large number of DNA sequences is required to gain an overview of the extent and pattern of divergence between the chimpanzee and human genomes.

To better understand how DNA sequences have changed during recent human evolution, we have determined ∼3 Mb from >10,000 regions in the chimpanzee genome. About two thirds could be unambiguously aligned to DNA sequences in humans. The results reveal complex patterns of accumulation of DNA sequence differences that are distinct with regard both to various classes of substitutions and to different chromosomes.​

SNIP gushing over Tomkins' folly.

I will never get over the predictable flow of events from these 'I know my science' creationists -
1. Post unnecessarily verbose and confident rhetoric/commentary hiding or downplaying their YEC/ID agenda
2. Pull out the 'big guns' when rhetoric fails - cherry picked links and references; out of context/misinterpreted phrases/sentences/bullet points provided as "proof"
3. Dishonesty/incompetence/deceptive practices exposed

Wash rinse repeat.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Hi,
The fact is since the Archaeopteryx fossil is considered controversial it cannot be used as proof for evolution.
Your creationist handlers keep lying to you.

Although not a single sector of Darwinic evolution can offer uncontested proof that it is nothing more than a imaginative theory it is acclaimed by mainstream scientists as a science.
Well, have at is, superstar:


I forget now who originally posted these on this forum*, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.



Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo and Pan lineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "


Just tests of a method followed by applications of the method.

She asks any molecular biologists to name a single, unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge to date is still unmet.
From a creationist computer scientist's
website:

Here are some quotes from Behe's book "Darwin's Black Box" that are relevant to my attempt to distinguish small evolution from large evolution and to define the "kernel" of an organism that is tightly constrained.​

Page 26:​

At one of her many public talks, she [Lynn Margulis] asks the molecular biologists in the audience to name a single unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge goes unmet.​

So did you plagiarize that from Behe or Plaisted?

Smug AND a plagiarist. Did you think nobody on earth has Google and experience dealing with creationist trolls?

Pathetic.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I’ve seen some earlier discussion about consciousness. The problem of consciousness remains puzzling and controversial.

Science can establish that life/consciousness exists but beyond that it doesn’t provide a definition or an explanation of how life or consciousness may have possibly emerged from nonliving matter. It’s beyond the jurisdiction of science.

Consciousness is a controversial concept. It cannot be dealt with directly, but we can study the manifestations or indications of consciousness.

It can be argued that intelligence (with respect to rational analysis that translates sense data to adaptive behaviors within an environment or context) is a manifestation of some sort of consciousness.

If we find evidence of intelligence, then we may consider the possibility that the organism has some sort of consciousness. Otherwise, if the organism itself is not "conscious", then these manifestations can be attributed to an external conscious intelligence, similar to the example of artificial intelligence (AI) being a manifestation of external (human) intelligence responsible for the programming.

Indicative evidence of intelligence manifestations including decision-making, problem-solving, quorum sensing, associative learning, adaptive behavior, cooperative behavior in populations, have been found at a microbial level in organisms such as Protozoa, Algae, Bacteria and Viruses.

In fact, intelligence manifestations are also found in nonliving matter at the atomic and molecular level.

- "Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought"
"We see now that bacteria are, in their way, big thinkers, and by knowing how they 'feel' about the environment around them, we can look at new and different ways to work with them."
Bacteria are more capable of complex decision-making than thought -- ScienceDaily

- Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart
Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart (evo2.org)

- How bacteria choose a lifestyle
How bacteria choose a lifestyle | Nature

- How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?
How Do Bacteria Decide Where to Divide?: Cell

-The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate?
Editorial: The intricacy of choice: can bacteria decide what type of myeloid cells to stimulate? - PMC (nih.gov)

- Brainy bacteria could revolutionize healthcare
Brainy bacteria could revolutionise healthcare | Research | The Guardian

- "Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly ‘intelligent’ viruses"
“Viruses are very intelligent. They can think. They do things that we do not expect. They adapt to the environment. They change themselves in order to survive,”
Researcher teases out secrets from surprisingly 'intelligent' viruses - USC News

- Microbial intelligence
Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia

- A Portuguese University "Universityof São Paulo", puplished a study "Intelligence in Matter", that investigates the intelligent non-random behavior at the atomic and molecular level.

"atomic intelligence can be defined as inversely proportional to the entropy of a system. The higher the entropy of a system the more random is its behavior and hence less is its intrinsic internal intelligence. The lower the entropy less is the random behavior which is equivalent to molecular formation in the case of an atom. Hence the ability of an element A to form molecules or compounds with other elements is a measure of atom A’s intelligence."

"what is pertinent in this discussion is to appreciate the existence of intelligence at the fundamental level of atoms which can be termed as internal intelligence."

The study concluded that the existence of internal intelligence at the atomic and molecular level is evidence of the absence of an external intelligence. but is that a logical conclusion? can we conclude that the existence of internal intelligence in an "artificial intelligence system", is evidence of the absence of an external (human) intelligence?

Intelligence-in-Matter.pdf (usp.br)

In conclusion, intelligence of a complex living organism is one of the manifestations of internal consciousness. On the other hand, intelligence of a microorganism, a nonliving system (AI) or atomic intelligence (at the atomic and molecular level) can be attributed to external consciousness. (Consciousness may not be an intrinsic character of the second group but only a manifestation of an external consciousness).

We live in a world where everything we can observe is a manifestation of intelligence, in the cosmos, in living organisms, even at the atomic and molecular level. We're used to order. It's the norm. We may be amazed to see an act of a magician that appears to break the norm but In fact, chaos and randomness should not be a surprise at all. The real surprise is the rigid order (norm) that controls every aspect of the world in which we live.
When humans name all subjects themselves as the self idolators you are. Then you controlling programming designing machines by your thinking human as tthe human totality just machines needs a biological human to control and manipulate machine. Functions machine not one one body however but as lots and lots of mechanical functions.

Is self designer human AI possession.

As all subjects separations named only by humans as and are all manipulations performed by humans claiming science is the creator.

Hence the terms God were stated as non scientific descriptions because of the type of human behaviour we now see demonstrated. Humans pretending machines own consciousness.

If science asks why humans talked about God as unknown. It's because of how you think.

Brothers look at the ape. Science says science confirms then watched the ape life continually in human presence and like humans has seen its next one to our biology expressions. Ape consciousness.

Totally.

But that advice is not what they seek. Their claim transmitters that machines they designed that left earth that attacked humans as effects is their desire.

Only happening as the whole human conscious intelligence and biology a portion of it gone is now successful.

As a portion of life's DNA biology is gone sacrificed it's why transmitters have little effect on biology. As you scientist already sacrificed DNA yourselves.

The story DNA sacrificed by invention was real.

We once quantified your type of thinking as Satanism.

Once you took your human riches and hid underground. Until you could re emerge using new names and slunk back into society.

Today thinking upon the same historic memory thoughts you personally owned expressed and believed.... you claim nuclear causes above ground which philosophers stone as a gold product never owned. You say is comparable history about life's survival.

Yet it's not. If you had to try to survive underground again.

They didn't own nor destroy God earths products as nuclear does they kept maintained most of the product to get gold. You burn it up.

Not the same.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Pretty pathetic - relies on Tomkins, conflates disparate issues, engages in dopey analogies as evidence. And he claims not to have an agenda or be a creationist, so dishonest, too.
I love the science is a global conspiracy theme that underlies the dogmatism claim about contrived results designed to fit experiments.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
In human man reality all human's born is by human sex and not we were not created in humans thoughts words or studies.

Humans medically are in biology very sacrificed and sick.

So Christian teachings referenced taught are outright lying today. Claiming life is saved.

The healer medical report about genesis said the human life sacrificed suffering was many humans. One human man the teacher was crucified on a criminal humans society law.... cross for telling society science is a liar.

1000 years later life attacked by history man in earth science causes tells the same story. The science reemerging community murders him too.

Men in science and men in law owned cruel minds. Sick torturers.

Science only a human practice as a human did not own created creation in space by a humans thesis.

A theist human propaganda.

Medical themes for human man claim I am studying all human illnesses to save you.

Too late. You should be not studying anyone as we shouldn't be life suffering as human sacrificed.

Was the medical teaching.

So why are humans by human medical advice studying the intricacies of what a human isn't as their life just a human for?

Are you trying to by science work out an artificial method to have all biology destroyed.

As the studies you impose for and in human reality make no sense at all.

As a human if you try to add a human onto every biology type you studied you would destroy everything living.

Isn't occult science the theist looking for the substance to say beginning type then burn it up as a used resource?

By his machine only a human and not creation built?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Some good points here, but "intelligence" can be a slippery term, and its relationship to consciousness or conscious choice even more so.

I appreciate that you rationally argue about what you believe is true and don’t rely on fallacious tactics to win an argument. It’s a quality that many are lacking.

We're not here to waste time and effort as opponents but as rational humans exchanging different perspectives for the benefit of all. If we’re on the same side, we wouldn’t have any argument and the discussion would be pointless. Those who cannot tolerate other different views are on the wrong forum.

Let's go back to the roots (origins). if you propose a theory to explain a system in which A caused B and B caused C., then you provide an explanation only for how B caused C and leave A unexplained, then the theory has failed to explain the system. without A, neither B nor C can exist. This is what Darwin did. He had a simplistic understanding of the living cell (see #40) and thought it could appear under the right conditions. He was wrong. The cell is the most complex designed system man has ever witnessed. I know you would agree but here is a clarification for others.

"To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see is an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like portholes of a vast spaceship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man"

Your Body's Molecular Machines - YouTube

DNA animations by wehi.tv for Science-Art exhibition - YouTube

science cannot demonstrate how nature fabricated the world's first digital single celled/information processor, let alone the impossible demonstration of how this extremely complex molecular hardware got to write its own extremely complex software? The emergence of a complex internally intelligent system from nonliving mater is never attributed to evolution, it's a manifestation of external intelligence.

The proposed evolutionary process necessitates the existence of life as a prerequisite. without a living organism that can grow and reproduce, there is absolutely no evolution can take place. life may create a chance for an evolutionary process to emerge (directed adaptation). Evolution doesn't cause life to exist.

Abiogenesis does not provide answers of how the first cell emerged other than wishful speculations. We agree that non-living matter cannot evolve, simply because it's neither alive nor can reproduce (can't pass gradual changes to offspring), there is no mechanism or route through which non-living matter can be transformed into a living cell.

under prebiotic conditions, there is no process to create the required biomolecules let alone assembling it. the argument that million of years allow the process to somehow take place is false. time is an enemy of the process since the required chemicals will degrade/decompose in a relatively very short time. if some molecules somehow emerged through an unknown process, it will not wait millions of years to get the other essential molecules. it will simply decompose.

any living organism is composed of cells, trillions of cells in the case of humans. if the single cell is not explained as a product of chance, then no organism is.

It's not clear that bacteria, slime molds or ants are aware of their decision making prowess, or even that the're making decisions, much less goal directed decisions.

Ants show evidence of awareness/intelligence. It's not clear whether microbial organisms are aware but it shows very clear manifestations of great intelligence (see the links in #226). "Goal directed decisions" as you proposed is a significant manifestation of intelligence. Microbial organisms are possibly not aware. An intelligent unaware system is an indication of external conscious intelligence responsible for programming of that internal intelligence of the unaware system (similar to the example of AI).

Most of these 'intelligent' decisions are likely mediated by unconscious algorithms, naturally selected for, just like anatomical, physiological, or psychological features. They're likely no more cognitive or aware than a self driving car is.

The complex info encoded in DNA is an absolute prerequisite for the simplest single-celled form of life, natural selection didn’t play any role to develop the encoded info of the alleged first cell that emerged from nonliving matter. The explanation that the origin was seeded from outer space is a ridiculous wishful thinking. it only shifts the problem to somewhere else. it's not an answer.

Logical reasoning can get easily lost in generalization and oversimplification. This is the problem of the evolutionary concept. The devil is in the details. Generalization can be very deceiving. We need to disengage items and concepts to keep our thoughts organized and facilitate the discussion.

Non-physical Phenomena:

C1- Consciousness is a non-physical phenomenon.

C2- intelligence is one of the manifestations of consciousness/awareness.

C3- decision-making, problem-solving, adaptive behavior, cooperative behavior, etc. are manifestations of intelligence

C4- psychological features are "non-physical" manifestations of consciousness/awareness.

Life:

L1- complex organisms: show evidence of consciousness/intelligence.

L2- simpler life/microorganisms: show evidence of intelligence.

Non-living Matter:

N1- Atoms and molecules: show evidence of intelligent non-random behavior.

N2- Man made systems (such as AI): non-conscious intelligent systems as a function of external human intelligence.


in conclusion,

- Science doesn't know what consciousness is, consciousness is a prerequisite for logical principles, logical principles are prerequisites for any intelligent process, consciousness is the root cause of intelligence.

- Consciousness is a prerequisite for psychological features, psychological features are not products of a physical process.

- Consciousness explains intelligence of complex organisms (L1)

- Self driving car is a manifestation of external intelligence (N2)

- Any nonconscious AI system is a manifestation of external intelligence (N2)

- Any nonconscious intelligence (algorithms) is a manifestation of external conscious intelligence (L2)

- Internal atomic intelligence is a manifestation of external intelligence (N1)
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
[Tell us how that could have been determined if only "Total amount of chimpanzee DNA sequence analyzed is about 3 million bp, only about 0.001 of the chimpanzee genome." ]

Funny - it seems that you completely missed the point of the study - not surprising. The analysis was NOT to gauge the % similarity between humans and chimps comparing the entire genome of each. Admittedly, the title is misleading, but one need only read the abstract and intro to see what they were really doing - you present their limited dataset as some kind of "admission." IPity that people like you just paraphrase other creationists or do keyword searches in the hopes that nobody you present your amazing findings to will know any better.

Sad.

Abstract
A total of 8,859 DNA sequences encompassing ∼1.9 million base pairs of the chimpanzee genome were sequenced and compared to corresponding human DNA sequences.
First line of the abstract clearly indicates that they DID NOT set out to compare the entire genomes! Did you just copy-paste your "analysis" from some YEC blog or something?

You ask a question in # 228 and then you answer yourself in # 231. You show everyone your failure to read the first line of the abstract. You admit that the title is misleading.
"Genomewide Comparison of DNA Sequences between Humans and Chimpanzees"
You did all the work for me, Thanks

Only one clarification, it’s not 0.001 of the chimpanzee genome. I already explained that only 0.00065 of the chimpanzee genome was compared (after the exclusion of the 35%). It’s a simple math, as the first line of the abstract clearly indicates that only 1.9 million of the 3.0 billion bp chimpanzee genome were sequenced and compared.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Pretty pathetic - relies on Tomkins, conflates disparate issues, engages in dopey analogies as evidence. And he claims not to have an agenda or be a creationist, so dishonest, too.

Stop the ad hominem nonsense. Get real and stop the drama, I obviously support creation/intelligent design. Do you think it's a mystery for anyone else other than yourself? How is that an agenda any more than your fallacious nonsense approach to defend your own evolutionary views?
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You did?

I told you what I read.

Heal thyself I suppose.

It’s really simple, you did read, you didn't like it, you mentioned other papers but refused to cite any of it. You deceive yourself to convince others. If you want others to take you as honest, start with being honest with yourself.
 
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