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Darwin's Illusion

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Just for giggles - don't really take this one seriously anymore, but this is something that always bugs me when creationists use this phrase:

HOW different?

100% different? No amino acids matching at all?
Or just off by a couple of amino acids, which can be accounted for by just a few nucleotide substitutions in a gene of thousands?

You are one of those creationists that thinks you are much better informed on these issues than you really are.

That or you are just the latest in a long line of dishonest and largely underinformed religious fanatics engaging in "witnessing" so you can go back to your bible church and brag about how you're "owning the libs" or whatever...

You keep jumping around. you ask for citation to confirm the 80% percentage in, # 228, you don’t wait for my citation, you verify that the 80% percentage is correct on your own then come back in # 242 to move the goalpost as usual to “HOW different the 80% different proteins are"

Its Ok, but before we entertain your usual fallacious move of the goalposts, lets first establish that we already agreed on the 80% percentage

"80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees”

Now, let’s move forward.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You wrote:

"80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans."
I asked HOW different the 80% different proteins are - what is the extent of the difference? I didn't even mention the mouse protein coding GENES (at first).

You’re delusional! you’re responding to #249, I didn’t mention anything about Mice protein in #249. Did I?

If you want citation for the mice protein that I mentioned before in # 175, here it is:

“Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans."

Why Mouse Matters (genome.gov)

Why did you not mention that human and chimp protein coding gene sequences are on the order of 99% identical? Because that undermined you ID creationist agenda, so you decided to pull a switcheroo and hope nobody would notice?

Because its not 99%, I already clarified in #175 that the study that claimed “Genomewide Comparison of DNA Sequences between Humans and Chimpanzees” only compared 1.9 million of the 3.0 billion bp chimpanzee genome. only 0.00065 of chimpanzee genome was compared. To conclude average DNA sequence difference is 1.24%.. it s a totally inaccurate and misleading conclusion.

I never said or implied that you claimed 100% of all proteins are different, I asked HOW much difference there is between those 80% of proteins that ARE different. Are they 100% different? or 1% different? or 0.01% different?

Of interest, and not mentioned by you, is that they only categorized the amino acid sequences as 100%, 99%, 98%, or <98%. 97% is still pretty "identical", yes?

So you agreed on the 80% difference, but now you want to know how different are those different proteins.

Proteins are the most structurally complex and functionally sophisticated molecules known. Proteins are made using 20 different amino acids, the possible number of proteins with unique amino acid sequences is unimaginably huge. Many thousands of different proteins are known, each with its own particular amino acid sequence.

<98% doesn’t mean 97%. It means any percentage from 97% to 0%

The unique sequence, or order, of amino acids (protein’s primary structure) dictates the 3-D conformation the folded protein will have. This conformation, in turn, will determine the function of the protein. Even those other sequences with only 1% or 2% difference would significantly impact or alter the function.

Anyways, regardless of the extent of the difference, the important fact stays that 80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees”

Threatened? Hilarious. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent and distort and embellish claims to prop up YOU views? Seems that such antics are far more indicative of feeling 'threatened' than my pointing out the flaws in your sad, hackneyed, "arguments."

Its not what you say, it’s the tension in the way you respond. It clearly shows someone who feels threatened/ insecure.

The humans I respect and trust do not feel the need to engage in deceptive antics, projective implications, the use of cherry-picked and out of context assertions, etc.

You refuse to respect other human’s beliefs but yet you expect humans to respect the descendants of the common ancestor who lost touch with all meanings of morality and value. Trust and honesty don’t exist in the materialistic dictionary.

Again, Just please relax for your common ancestors’ sake.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
All that gibberish to hide the fact that you rely on analogies, just as I implied.

I have typically found that the more verbose a response is to a simple issue the more likely it is to be an attempt to hide behind the writer's incompetence.

Flowery prose is no match for my presentation of the simple fact - you, like most creationists, do not actually understand the things you pontificate on.

''“Gibberish, incompetence, Flowery prose, creationists, do not actually understand the things you pontificate on..”''!!!

Stop hiding behind your fallacious ad hominem, if you can’t think of any thing rational to say, its ok to stay quiet please. This doesn’t benefit anyone.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Amazing how much verbiage creationists will employ to avoid having to admit that their understanding of the "analogy" between actual genetic activity is not exactly like computer software/hardware is something to behold...
Gomer did not even bother to comment on ANY of this.

Gomer is not to be taken seriously - all hat, no cattle. AKA typical creationist.

see #251
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a human didn't invent any machines you'd be family human existing food gathering enjoying natural life.

Basic natural science basic human basic existence of the human no.egotism no arrogance no ignorance.

Human. An equal human one human yet as two human's equal.

Is a scientists you are a just a human first teaching as a humans false preacher.

Topic subject is only a choice. You aren't any God ....your human words aren't any God. Created creation exists whether you are alive or deceased. As just a human.

Hence if a human did a mind study of a theist science human behaviour the topic would quantify you as very strange. As a human only behaviour.

What you think you represent in created creation your claim is everything.

So when you can change morph evolve into a sun body or a planet body or a star body or a heavens mass let us know wont you egotists. As seemingly you don't accept you're just a human.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You keep jumping around. you ask for citation to confirm the 80% percentage in, # 228, you don’t wait for my citation, you verify that the 80% percentage is correct on your own then come back in # 242 to move the goalpost as usual to “HOW different the 80% different proteins are"
You are terrible at this.

You conflate issues and cannot answer simple requests for clarification.

Its Ok, but before we entertain your usual fallacious move of the goalposts, lets first establish that we already agreed on the 80% percentage

"80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees”

Now, let’s move forward.

Before I waste time educating you on things you pretend to understand again, tell us all -
HOW different are those 80% of non-identical proteins?
Are they 99% similar? 98% 97% 96%?

And why did YOU mention mouse GENES after you mentioned human-chimp PROTEINS?

And why on earth did you mention the shabby propaganda of YEC Tomkins when you want people to think you are actually knowledgeable on the matter?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You’re delusional!
Says the guy that presented YEC Tomkins' folly as valid.

you’re responding to #249, I didn’t mention anything about Mice protein in #249. Did I?

If you want citation for the mice protein that I mentioned before in # 175, here it is:

“Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans."

Why Mouse Matters (genome.gov)

Yeah, I know - I provided the link, clown.

So why did you make a big deal about 80% identical PROTEINS between human-chimp (which as you cannot handle was lower than a more expansive comparison that I provided) compared to 85% similar GENES between mouse and human, even as readily available pubs indicate a far higher % identity between human and chimp genes?

Pushing your dopey agenda?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It was hilarious when this was replied to with a claim that I took it out of context and did not provide a link...Creationists are really something...
I find it odd that your 'research' into directed mutations stopped in 1988.
A 2014 paper by one of Cairns' acolytes mentioned:

"Stress-induced mutagenesis was initially thought to be a mechanism by which mutations could be “directed” to the specific loci that would alleviate selective pressures. Subsequent studies have revealed that this is not the case."​

And even earlier (1992):

View attachment 61157

But hey, you've got an agenda to push...

Of course, my detractor also cited a group associated with Mae Wan Ho, so....
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You’re not making any rational argument but rather playing physiological tricks to confuse uninformed readers.
Projection is amazing.
...Evolutionists fallacious tactics “appeal to authority”
And then he did this:
And the "MY guys are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong because what they say agrees with my agenda!!!" continues...
Here is some of what Gerd B. Müller said in the royal society conference in 2016 “A rising number of publications argue for a major revision or even a replacement of the standard theory of evolution, indicating that this cannot be dismissed as a minority view but rather is a widespread feeling among scientists and philosophers alike”
“Sometimes these challenges are met with dogmatic hostility, decrying any criticism of the traditional theoretical edifice as fatuous, but more often the defenders of the traditional conception argue that ‘all is well’ with current evolutionary theory... blah blah blah"
The cry of the attention-seeker.
You know who else has written things like that? Your hero YEC Tomkins.
And every YEC?IDC I have ever read.
In absence of the absolute truth, every truth is relative. Today’s truth is tomorrow’s fiction.
Yes - your "truth" from yesterday (citing Tomkins, conflating proteins with genes, etc.) is todays fiction, that is for sure.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Darwin lived in a time when spontaneous generation (formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms) was believed to be true.
Good thing how life began is irrelevant to the ToE.

But a science superstar like you pretend to be knows that, right?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Making sense is not relevant to the claimed evolution process,
Evolution = random mutations + blind, purposeless natural selection.
Purposeful misrepresentation of that which you have been programmed to attack is amazing.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Absolutely, it's neither blind nor purposeless but typically evolutionists insist it is.

The neo-Darwinian theory of evolution, which is firmly based on the natural selection of random mutations, should be an obsolete theory since Non-Random Directed Mutations were confirmed..
LOL!

Wow, talk about misrepresentation.

At least you're not citing Spetner's pap... yet...
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Logical analysis of data (based on causality) that is collected through sense perception establishes the perceived reality/facts.

Collected data through sense perception doesn’t establish a sufficient disclosure of objective reality that independently lies outside the limits of awareness/knowledge.

The data never establishes a reality. Logic does through logical evaluation of the data.

The data is relative/limited because of the limited capacity of the senses but Logic in not subject to the limitation of sense perception and allows broader understanding of reality.

We exist in a world of relative entities, it’s difficult to understand the absolute but we can logically understand that all relative entities must be grounded in the absolute.

You got everything backward, LIIA.

Evidence are parts of the physical phenomena or natural phenomena, that are being observed.

Observations are not just those that we can directly see, hear, touch or smell, but also those observed through devices, instruments or equipment that can detect and measure and test the evidence.

A lot of these devices not only assist with observing, but can measure and test evidence that human’s sensory perceptions cannot perceive.

For instance, our eyesight can directly perceive color through the visible light range in the electromagnetic spectrum. But there are limitations as to what human eyesight can see, therefore required some sorts of devices to get the precise measurements of the EM wavelengths and frequencies of each colors. Plus, some people’s eyesights are better than others, while other may have defects that people may have blindness of some kinds, eg color blindness.

Plus, there are devices that allow us to observe EM waves beyond the visible range of human eyesight, such as infrared, ultraviolet, microwaves, x-ray, gamma waves, radio waves. And then there are the many applications for these EM waves, eg radio, television, computer networking, telecommunications (mobile phones, satellite communication, fibre optic, etc), devices used medicines (digital thermometer that use infrared to measure a person’s body temperature without even touching that person, X-ray machine, mri machine, etc), astronomy (optical telescopes, radio telescopes, telescopes that can observed in the infrared, ultraviolet, microwave, X-ray, gamma wave ranges), camera and video camera can record events, etc.

The point being, despite what a human eye can see, we have use our knowledge with EM field in physics, plus knowledge in technology and engineering to design and manufacture devices capable of doing observations that our eyesight are not capable of.

And I have mentioned that devices can do our “observations” for us, but these devices can do more than just “observing” evidence, they can also provide information or raw data that scientists and engineers can use to understand.

Data comes from physical evidence, which would include detection of the physical properties of the evidence (what the evidence are made of, eg solid, liquid, gas or plasma, metal, wood, minerals, inorganic or organic makeup, etc), the physical characteristics of the evidence (eg measurements of dimensions, volume, mass, density, wavelength or frequency, electrical voltage, current or power, etc).

All these data or information comes from objective observations, especially when the observations come from data-gathering and data-measuring devices being used.

It is the job of some specialists, eg scientists, medical doctors, engineers, etc, to understand these data means, through diagnosis and their experiences in that fields.

No, LIIA.

Data are part of the evidence, information about the observed physical evidence.

Scientists do try to attempt to understand what these data mean, and how they they can be used. Our understanding may be correct or they may be wrong, but the data are the actual information that you gained directly from the evidence.

Your problems are, that you are confusing raw data with a person’s understanding of the data. Data are independent of our understanding. It is our understanding that may be right or wrong.

Sorry, LIIA, but I find your logic to be seriously flawed and backward.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I’ve seen some earlier discussion about consciousness. The problem of consciousness remains puzzling and controversial.

Science can establish that life/consciousness exists but beyond that it doesn’t provide a definition or an explanation of how life or consciousness may have possibly emerged from nonliving matter. It’s beyond the jurisdiction of science.

Consciousness is a controversial concept. It cannot be dealt with directly, but we can study the manifestations or indications of consciousness.

It can be argued that intelligence (with respect to rational analysis that translates sense data to adaptive behaviors within an environment or context) is a manifestation of some sort of consciousness.

More backward and illogical thinking.

Consciousness are only really controversial if you only define or explain consciousness in philosophical or religious paradigms.

Religious concepts and religious concepts on consciousness are often ill-defined, and in the religious and spiritual side, include belief in the supernatural, some things that don’t exist in nature.

In sciences, there are two possible ways to understand consciousness, through:
  • ...Natural Sciences, eg biology, neuroscience, etc...
  • ...and Social Sciences, eg psychology, psychiatry, behavioral science,etc.
Social Sciences are fields concerning how humans think, feel, behave, and how they live their lives (eg cultures). Social Sciences don’t require to follow strict requirements of Scientific Method, because how humans think and behave varied too widely, and it allowed for anomalies such as people that have mental or behavioral disorders.

However, there are some overlaps between psychology and biology. For instances, some physical (biological) or biochemical imbalances can explain for a patient who suffer from psychological or emotional illnesses, that might altered ones’ perceptions or consciousness. Example someone who may suffer from stroke, their behavior may become irrational, or they may suffer memory losses, etc,

On a purely biological basis, consciousness only exist and in evident when a person is still alive. Hence the brain must be still functioning. But if a person died, then if his brain ceased to function, then so does consciousness.

From a purely biological perspective, consciousness don’t exist beyond a human’s death. Only in some (wack job) philosophies and in some religions, does consciousnesses transcend the physical brains, and life itself.

I used to be open to the eastern philosophies and the Hindu and Buddhist concepts about transcendent of consciousness, but in the last 15 or more years, the lack of evidence have made me as skeptical with these concepts as I have with Abrahamic miracles.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Before I waste time educating you on things you pretend to understand again, tell us all -
HOW different are those 80% of non-identical proteins?
Are they 99% similar? 98% 97% 96%?

Again, the paper concluded that 80% of proteins are different between the two species. The specific lowest level of similarity is not identified, less than 98% can be any percentage <98%. Regardless, my argument is not about how different are those 80% of non-identical proteins, it’s a concern of yours that I already entertained in my response # 262.

And why did YOU mention mouse GENES after you mentioned human-chimp PROTEINS?

Again, I didn’t mention any mouse genes in #249; I did mention it in #175 to show that the imposed significance of such comparisons is misleading.

And why on earth did you mention the shabby propaganda of YEC Tomkins when you want people to think you are actually knowledgeable on the matter?


I don’t have a problem with Tomkins, you do. Again, the alleged 99% similarity of chimpanzee genome is false. It’s never about personal credit. I’m neither a Christian nor have anything to do with YEC. Its irrelevant, this thread is about the ToE, If you want to know were I stand, you may see my post # 132 on page 7 of the thread “Necessary Being: Exists?” but again it’s a separate discussion.

Necessary Being: Exists? - Mainly addressing atheists
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
And then he did this:

And the "MY guys are RIGHT and everyone else is wrong because what they say agrees with my agenda!!!" continues...

First in #155 you deny any significance to Denis Noble statements in the international conference of physiological sciences, then in #270 you call it appeal to authority!! Which means that you admit that these are scientists of the highest caliber in their field. As usual, your arguments are dishonest and illogical.

I told you before to stay quite if you can’t think of anything rational, but rather you jump all over the thread searching old posts for some distractions and then come back with some more nonsense arguments, especially this one “appeal to authority”!! You don’t even understand the “appeal to authority” fallacy; all of these scientists are EVOLUTIONISTS (without any bias towards my argument), they all represent YOUR SIDE of the argument NOT MINE; yet you call it an appeal to authority. They’re not "MY GUYS", I referenced them only for the specific challenges that they HONESTLY admit against the ToE

The cry of the attention-seeker.
You know who else has written things like that? Your hero YEC Tomkins.
And every YEC?IDC I have ever read.

So you neither like the evolutionists scientists of the highest caliber such as Gerd B. Müller nor Tomkins.!!! In other words, you don’t like anyone (regardless who he is) if he says something against your agenda, then you simply engage in your typical fallacious ad hominem tactic to hide behind it whenever you fail to think of any thing rational. Stop the nonsense.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Good thing how life began is irrelevant to the ToE.

But a science superstar like you pretend to be knows that, right?


This was a response to Valjean’s request for explanation in # 15 of Darwin’s expectation that organic life was simple.

You keep jumping all over the thread searching older posts for distractions with no purpose other than moving the goalpost to avoid a logical argument. Again, Stop jumping around; it may be difficult for you, possibly a trait from a common ancestor.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Purposeful misrepresentation of that which you have been programmed to attack is amazing.

Purposeful misrepresentation?? This is the fundamental definition of the ToE,

Evolution = random mutations + blind, purposeless natural selection.

If you don’t agree, provide another definition or stop your nonsense.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Evidence are parts of the physical phenomena or natural phenomena, that are being observed.

No, physical/natural phenomena, that are being observed may or may not be considered as evidence only after logical evaluation of the observation.

The observation itself is not evidence but it can be taken as evidence depending on assumed relationship between the observations and a hypothesis.

Older civilizations assumed that the Earth's apparent lack of motion as evidence that Earth was the center of the universe and that the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars revolved around it. This view was based on observations that appeared as sufficient evidence to warrant that conclusion but it was not and the conclusion was false.

Without the proper logical analysis, there is no evidence, only raw data that can be interpreted in different ways either in favor or against a hypothesis. The interpretation/conclusion may be right or wrong.

Observations from a limited perspective can be misleading and may be taken as evidence for a false hypothesis.

Observations are not just those that we can directly see, hear, touch or smell, but also those observed through devices, instruments or equipment that can detect and measure and test the evidence.

A lot of these devices not only assist with observing, but can measure and test evidence that human’s sensory perceptions cannot perceive.

Sure, devices and equipment help tremendously; I never meant to exclude it, but it also has limitation. In addition, all collected data are finally evaluated through our logic before it can be deemed as evidence.

The establishment of logical relationship between evidence and hypotheses is a necessary scientific process but it definitely has its limitation.

Consider this example, would our devices allow observations beyond the Big Bang? Is that a limitation?

The limitation of our ability to observe/understand, only sets the boundary to our knowledge, not the objective reality. Our own limits don’t identify the absolute/objective reality that lies external to the boundaries established by our limited knowledge.

For instance, our eyesight can directly perceive color through the visible light range in the electromagnetic spectrum. But there are limitations as to what human eyesight can see, therefore required some sorts of devices to get the precise measurements of the EM wavelengths and frequencies of each colors. Plus, some people’s eyesights are better than others, while other may have defects that people may have blindness of some kinds, eg color blindness.

Color is an example of perceived reality. Different wavelengths in the visible spectrum of electromagnetic radiation triggers our sensation of color. These colors only reside within our consciousness. External objective reality has no colors, only lots of EM waves of varying length/ frequency.

Plus, there are devices that allow us to observe EM waves beyond the visible range of human eyesight, such as infrared, ultraviolet, microwaves, x-ray, gamma waves, radio waves. And then there are the many applications for these EM waves, eg radio, television, computer networking, telecommunications (mobile phones, satellite communication, fibre optic, etc), devices used medicines (digital thermometer that use infrared to measure a person’s body temperature without even touching that person, X-ray machine, mri machine, etc), astronomy (optical telescopes, radio telescopes, telescopes that can observed in the infrared, ultraviolet, microwave, X-ray, gamma wave ranges), camera and video camera can record events, etc.

The point being, despite what a human eye can see, we have use our knowledge with EM field in physics, plus knowledge in technology and engineering to design and manufacture devices capable of doing observations that our eyesight are not capable of.

It’s an interesting fact that sensation of color as a component of sight perception (that resides within our consciousness), is limited to only what enables us to be functional beings within our physical environment. imagine if we had the ability to see all EM length/ frequency or if the air around us was visible, it would be a major hindrance.

Again, sensations reside only in our consciousness. Devices may receive/record data such as photos or sounds but no sensation is triggered within these devices. No sensation of any kind can be fabricated from configuration of matter.

Sensation is not limited to color, having "Qualia" includes all kinds of individual subjective conscious experiences, the taste of an apple has a meaning to you as a unique experience but it has no meaning external to you, sound of music has no meaning external to your consciousness, only waves vibrating through a medium but no sensation of sound, same is true for pain, joy, beauty, ugliness, etc. it all reside only within a consciousness. Physical entities in an environment may function as a stimulus to trigger Qualia in a consciousness, but Qualia itself is not physical. It’s an individual unique internal experience that cannot be physically replicated out side of consciousness.

Regardless of the triggers of Qualia, whether a direct stimuli through sense perception or indirect through the assistance of devices/equipment, Qualia doesn’t establish a sufficient disclosure of objective reality.

Data comes from physical evidence

nonsensical statement, Data comes from physical observations, the specific data that can be logically accepted to have causal dependency relationship which confirms or disconfirms scientific hypotheses, can be then deemed as evidence. before the establishment of this relationship, the data is only independent raw data.

Scientists do try to attempt to understand what these data mean, and how they they can be used. Our understanding may be correct or they may be wrong, but the data are the actual information that you gained directly from the evidence.

agreed with the exception of the last statement. again, data is gained from observation NOT from evidence.

Your problems are, that you are confusing raw data with a person’s understanding of the data. Data are independent of our understanding. It is our understanding that may be right or wrong.

I'm not. this is exactly what I've been saying multiple times. you're contradicting yourself. data are indeed independent of our understanding. our understanding of causal dependency is what gets specific data to be deemed as evidence. indeed, It is our understanding that may be right or wrong. that is exactly my point. it appears that you do agree and your previous argument was irrelevant!!!

Sorry, LIIA, but I find your logic to be seriously flawed and backward.

Thanks you for sharing your view but I find your argument confused and illogical.
 
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