• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Darwin's Illusion

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father told me the amount of microbial healthy oxygenated life is gone. Now Ai.

As you burnt it for gas cooling that the living garden owned.... lots of nature no longer existing. Animals gone human health perfection gone. Water owner by mass presence.

You no longer even remember who the first human types were. Nothing like you sacrificed self into.

Hence virtually half of human man's conscious Living water support biology formed AI because of human scientists.

Is the only explanation.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Just for giggles - don't really take this one seriously anymore, but this is something that always bugs me when creationists use this phrase:
80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans.

HOW different?

100% different? No amino acids matching at all?
Or just off by a couple of amino acids, which can be accounted for by just a few nucleotide substitutions in a gene of thousands?

You are one of those creationists that thinks you are much better informed on these issues than you really are.

That or you are just the latest in a long line of dishonest and largely underinformed religious fanatics engaging in "witnessing" so you can go back to your bible church and brag about how you're "owning the libs" or whatever...
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I love the science is a global conspiracy theme that underlies the dogmatism claim about contrived results designed to fit experiments.
Oh yes - that "dogmatic" science, constraining publications for conformity, as opposed to not accepting YEC garbage pseudoscience BECAUSE it is garbage pseudoscience.
That this one accepted Tomkins folly at face value without question really undercuts the implied "I'm all about the science" façade.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
More debunking of @LIIA 's special hero's claim about 70% identity between human and chimp DNA. Tomkins' claims were debunked like the day after he made them, yet this guy pops in here 7 years after the fact hawking his nonsense.... Amazing...

Chimp and Human DNA - NeuroLogica Blog

"So how does Tomkins come up with 70%. Well, he is not comparing point mutations of aligned segments. He is comparing chromosomes to see how many segments line up to some arbitrary amount. As many others have already pointed out, this result is not wrong, it’s just irrelevant. Well, it might also be wrong. Others have found it difficult to reproduce his results. But even if his analysis is accurate, it is simply the wrong analysis to apply to dating the last common ancestor."
 
Last edited:

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
It’s really simple, you did read, you didn't like it, you mentioned other papers but refused to cite any of it. You deceive yourself to convince others. If you want others to take you as honest, start with being honest with yourself.
You previously claim I didn't read something. Now you claim I did.

I will save you the trouble of trying to figure that out and repeat myself. You opened with a line dismissing science as dogmatic and designed to reach contrived positions. That opinion would require a global conspiracy of scientists to even have a leg to stand on. It was all I needed to read. I did not consider reading further to be necessary to see that you post in a way to uphold your opening, biased opinion. I read your opening line.

I am not lying to myself, nor am calling anyone else a liar.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
science cannot demonstrate how nature fabricated the world's first digital single celled/information processor, let alone the impossible demonstration of how this extremely complex molecular hardware got to write its own extremely complex software?
Has creationism done that?
Sorry, forgot the unilateral burden of proof in this charades...
However, science CAN demonstrate that metaphorical analogies are not reality, nor do they constitute evidence. Copied from an earlier thread I started on here:

ANALOGY:
Definition of analogy

1a: a comparison of two otherwise unlike things based on resemblance of a particular aspect
b: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY

2: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others

3: correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for
the creation of another form
When I used to teach Biology 101, I would use the classic English Language analogy when introducing students to DNA and Genetics.
Analogies are (or can be) good teaching tools to convey complex subjects to those who are unfamiliar with the subject matter, by making a comparison between that complex material and something more common and understandable.

It goes something like this - The Nucleotides are like letters, the Exons are like words, a Gene is like a sentence, a Genome is like a book, etc., at least that is how I approached it. This is all very simplistic (by design) , but it usually helps get the basic points across.
I was always sure to make it clear that this is pretty much where the analogy ends. I would explain that genes can be very different from sentences, that genomes, unlike books, contain lots of 'chapters' repeated over and over, or parts of them repeated, etc., but again, that the analogy was good enough to get the basics across.

It seems that many people never got that caution, and were apparently told, or it was implied, that the analogy is almost exactly a 1-to-1 directly applicable comparison. And many of those same folks read a book or more likely an internet essay about "genetic information", where direct "information" analogies - just as inapplicable as the language analogies - are employed in which it is asserted that genes/genomes are exactly like computer code, and subject to the exact same constraints. This is why, for example, we see creationists - even on this forum, even today - claiming, for example that "rearranging the things that are already there is not new information". That claim is usually accompanied by something like "and you need new information to make a new part." I have even seem some intrepid anti-evolutionists provide specific (and wholly indefensible) numbers - one fellow claimed on another forum many years ago that 'we' needed at least 1 "brand new protein" to make a new body part, and that this required at least 333 mutations-worth of new information. I asked why, and how he knew this, but I never got a reply (of course). More recently, I had a rather well-known (at least on the internet) creationist declare that 'we' would need at least 1 million mutations to turn an ape pelvis into a human one. I asked for a list of 10 of these changes that were needed and how many mutations each would require and how he knew this. No answer, and it has been about 11 years... Anyway:

These language/computer code/ "information" constraints that are foisted upon evolution include (but are definitely not limited to):

1. You cannot just rearrange what is there and get anything new
2. You cannot just copy-paste what is already there and get anything new
3. You cannot screw up the code/word and expect something new or good to come of it

I first encountered the language analogy argument against evolution way back in the early 1990s, in the first creationism book I ever read. I don't remember the book, specifically, but I later learned that the example in this book had made the rounds and was pretty common amongst creationists. It went something like this, and it basically encompasses the three constraints above:

Here is a simple sentence: The dog ran fast. Now let us 'evolve' it: The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast. The dog dog ran fast.
The ran dog fast. The dig ran fast.

Isn't that CRAZY??? Those sentences don't make any sense! Obviously, this is not how evolution works. Because it DOESN'T work!​

In reality, we see:

The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast.

Diet and the evolution of human amylase gene copy number variation
Abstract
Starch consumption is a prominent characteristic of agricultural societies and hunter-gatherers in arid environments. In contrast, rainforest and circum-arctic hunter-gatherers and some pastoralists consume much less starch1,2,3. This behavioral variation raises the possibility that different selective pressures have acted on amylase, the enzyme responsible for starch hydrolysis4. We found that copy number of the salivary amylase gene (AMY1) is correlated positively with salivary amylase protein level and that individuals from populations with high-starch diets have, on average, more AMY1 copies than those with traditionally low-starch diets. Comparisons with other loci in a subset of these populations suggest that the extent of AMY1 copy number differentiation is highly unusual. This example of positive selection on a copy number–variable gene is, to our knowledge, one of the first discovered in the human genome. Higher AMY1 copy numbers and protein levels probably improve the digestion of starchy foods and may buffer against the fitness-reducing effects of intestinal disease.

The dog dog ran fast.

Common exon duplication in animals and its role in alternative splicing
Abstract
When searching the genomes of human, fly and worm for cases of exon duplication, we found that about 10% of all genes contain tandemly duplicated exons. In the course of the analyses, 2438 unannotated exons were identified that are not currently included in genome databases and that are likely to be functional. The vast majority of them are likely to be involved in mutually exclusive alternative splicing events. The common nature of recent exon duplication indicates that it might have a significant role in the fast evolution of eukaryotic genes. It also provides a general mechanism for the regulation of protein function.

The ran dog fast.

Evolutionary history of exon shuffling
Abstract
Exon shuffling has been characterized as one of the major evolutionary forces shaping both the genome and the proteome of eukaryotes. This mechanism was particularly important in the creation of multidomain proteins during animal evolution, bringing a number of functional genetic novelties. Here, genome information from a variety of eukaryotic species was used to address several issues related to the evolutionary history of exon shuffling. By comparing all protein sequences within each species, we were able to characterize exon shuffling signatures throughout metazoans. Intron phase (the position of the intron regarding the codon) and exon symmetry (the pattern of flanking introns for a given exon or block of adjacent exons) were features used to evaluate exon shuffling. We confirmed previous observations that exon shuffling mediated by phase 1 introns (1-1 exon shuffling) is the predominant kind in multicellular animals. Evidence is provided that such pattern was achieved since the early steps of animal evolution, supported by a detectable presence of 1-1 shuffling units in Trichoplax adhaerens and a considerable prevalence of them in Nematostella vectensis. In contrast, Monosiga brevicollis, one of the closest relatives of metazoans, and Arabidopsis thaliana, showed no evidence of 1-1 exon or domain shuffling above what it would be expected by chance. Instead, exon shuffling events are less abundant and predominantly mediated by phase 0 introns (0-0 exon shuffling) in those non-metazoan species. Moreover, an intermediate pattern of 1-1 and 0-0 exon shuffling was observed for the placozoan T. adhaerens, a primitive animal. Finally, characterization of flanking intron phases around domain borders allowed us to identify a common set of symmetric 1-1 domains that have been shuffled throughout the metazoan lineage.

The dig ran fast.

Point Mutations with Positive Selection Were a Major Force during the Evolution of a Receptor-Kinase Resistance Gene Family of Rice
ABSTRACT
The rice (Oryza sativa) Xa26 gene, which confers resistance to bacterial blight disease and encodes a leucine-rich repeat (LRR) receptor kinase, resides at a locus clustered with tandem homologous genes. .... The family is formed by tandem duplication followed by diversification through recombination, deletion, and point mutation. Most variation among genes in the family is caused by point mutations and positive selection.

I also looked at a couple papers on the Titin gene, as I had remembered from some years ago a discussion on that gene/protein on a forum, but I could not find the paper I had used before. I did, however, come across this figure - all the red blocks are identical or nearly identical Ig-like domains:

View attachment 52913

Largest protein we make. LOTS of what we are told is not 'new information' and just 'copies of what is already there' jammed together to make a gene that makes an important protein.

That handles both the language and 'information' "arguments via analogy" I believe, but there is one more 'information' issue that I would like to address - the claim that 'just changing what is already there does not create new information, therefore, no adaptive evolution can occur' or words to that effect.

This paper documents an insertion event (a mutation in which a large chunk of DNA is inserted in one event) within the promoter region of a gene which causes the gene to be over-transcribed, i.e., just more of the same protein is made. No 'new' protein, just "information" that makes more of it. And it confers an adaptive benefit:

A single p450 allele associated with insecticide resistance in Drosophila.
"...Transgenic analysis of Cyp6g1 shows that over-transcription of this gene alone is both necessary and sufficient for resistance. Resistance and up-regulation in Drosophila populations are associated with a single Cyp6g1 allele that has spread globally. This allele is characterized by the insertion of an Accord transposable element into the 5' end of the Cyp6g1 gene."

I'm sure the fallacy-mongers will be out in force (if they do not just ignore it all) and try to find ways to diminish or deny - I have presented the p450 many times, once had a creationist dismiss it because it did not produce a 'new limb'!! :facepalm:
:shrug:
That analogies are not evidence will be their burden to bear.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
And for those unsure what the Genetic Code is - or those who purposefully misuse the phrase (e.g., "billions of codes" in DNA LOL!), another old post of mine:


What is the genetic code?

Seems a simple enough question, and one that a person presenting him or herself as able and informed enough to argue against evolution using genetics should be able to answer without hesitation. After all, if I were going to argue against the historicity of Jesus, who would have confidence in my position if I were to describe Him as having blue skin and standing 50 feet high? And if I continued writing about this blue, 50 foot tall Jesus despite many explaining to me that I was quite wrong? Well, I would hope you would consider me uninformed and a troll,

And yet.... one can peruse many threads on this forum - some are active now - in which creationists make claims and arguments about genetics that make it pretty clear that they think the Genetic Code is something other than it really is. This despite, in many cases, being told and provided with links and explanations as to what 'the genetic code' actually is.

One need only put 'genetic code' in your search bar - it is pretty easy! Just did it:

View attachment 53382

For more detail, we can look at the page of the National Human Genome Research Institute - they would know, right?

The instructions in a gene that tell the cell how to make a specific protein. A, C, G, and T are the "letters" of the DNA code; they stand for the chemicals adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G), and thymine (T), respectively, that make up the nucleotide bases of DNA. Each gene's code combines the four chemicals in various ways to spell out three-letter "words" that specify which amino acid is needed at every step in making a protein.​

Bolding mine.
Not that hard, right? The illustration they use at the NHGRI:

genetic_code.jpg

That ^^^ is the genetic code.

And yet, we see creationists use it in very.... non-standard ways. To avoid being accused of 'call outs' and such, I will provide no links and use no names, but if you think I am being unfair or dishonest, you can always use the forum search tool.
A few examples:

"Although we do observe elements of adapation [sic] and natural selection in flipping the switches on already existing genetic codes - we never see the creation of new genetic code that would allow one kind of animal to turn into another kind."

"the genetic code drives the makeup of the body, not the mind.
there isn't a genetic code for consciousness"

"Does our genetic code change over the course of our lives?"

" The introduction of new functional genetic code information into an organism rather than merely toggling the switches of the genetic code that is already there."

"You still have not given any arguments to support your claim that any of the things you listed (polyploidy, horizontal gene transfer, plasmids, VNTRs, endogenous retroviruses,) could be used to explain how the new genetic code required for reptilian style scales could be introduced by random chance into a cat and result in replacing their fur."

"Adaptation is using the information already in the genetic codes to express changes in an organism.

Evolution is the introduction of new information, new code, that allows for doing something that the organisms previous genetic code did not have the ability to express through epigenetic adaptation."​

Lots, lots more. But that is a nice sampling.

Seems like creationists conflate the actual "genetic code" with an organism's genes, or genome. Or something. This is among the many reasons it is hard to have real discussions with creationists - they conflate concepts/mis-define concepts/employ idiosyncratic definitions and expect others to use their fake ones/etc.

But hopefully they will learn,

I doubt it, but hopefully...


*As an aside, while searching for additional examples, I came across a LOT of creationist plagiarism. So much that I stopped keeping track.... sad... Even sadder is that it seems many creationists get their information - including the mis-defining of "genetic code" - from banana-man Ray Comfort..
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
You know scientists pretend everyday as one human conscious claim I am one and safe. I own two parents as one body. Hated women as he said maths was a mother. Forced taught it was.

As their proof.

As the creator theme the scientist human... I'm a human in all studies of everything separately as no reverence for the true form one whole natural form.

I express my creative style everyday not allowing whole forms to be the only answer.

Yet never would want anyone to subject his owned life body to its separation. To not allow him life or life's expression as the single whole body owner.

Is who is stated our destroyer. The human scientist theist Causer of fake stories to be taught.

Arguments of humans versus human sciences machines causes.

AI effects bio change.

Stated claim I time shifted all life on earth.... burnt it so maths only human expressed proves I caused it.

If you forced maths into life as a mother theme what sort of biology and consciousness would you become by not claiming human sex and a human mother was your mother?

Everything you shouldn't be.

Then you would quote the mother of life's change was maths caused by men of science claiming Ai invented us.

As invention by the human man of maths is earth direct the machine.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
HOW different?

100% different? No amino acids matching at all?
Or just off by a couple of amino acids, which can be accounted for by just a few nucleotide substitutions in a gene of thousands?

You are one of those creationists that thinks you are much better informed on these issues than you really are.

No not 100%, again, again, I said “80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome.” See the link below.

Eighty percent of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees - ScienceDirect

if you don't agree with this 80% percentage, feel free to provide the correct one and lets review it, otherwise stop the fallacious games.


That or you are just the latest in a long line of dishonest and largely underinformed religious fanatics engaging in "witnessing" so you can go back to your bible church and brag about how you're "owning the libs" or whatever...

I’m not a Christian but I expect you to show respect to other people beliefs. You have your view but you don’t own the truth.

Why are you threatened by other people views, you’re entitled to your own view. No one would change that other than yourself. The same is true for others. Relax and let’s talk as humans.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
You previously claim I didn't read something. Now you claim I did.

I will save you the trouble of trying to figure that out and repeat myself. You opened with a line dismissing science as dogmatic and designed to reach contrived positions. That opinion would require a global conspiracy of scientists to even have a leg to stand on. It was all I needed to read. I did not consider reading further to be necessary to see that you post in a way to uphold your opening, biased opinion. I read your opening line.

I am not lying to myself, nor am calling anyone else a liar.
You know better what you read, will leave it at that.
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
Has creationism done that?
Sorry, forgot the unilateral burden of proof in this charades...
However, science CAN demonstrate that metaphorical analogies are not reality, nor do they constitute evidence. Copied from an earlier thread I started on here:

This is a “False Dichotomy”. It’s not either/or. The failure of your logic to explain a system is not relevant to other alternatives that may or may not exist.

ANALOGY:
Definition of analogy

1a: a comparison of two otherwise unlike things based on resemblance of a particular aspect
b: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY

2: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others

3: correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for
the creation of another form
When I used to teach Biology 101, I would use the classic English Language analogy when introducing students to DNA and Genetics.
Analogies are (or can be) good teaching tools to convey complex subjects to those who are unfamiliar with the subject matter, by making a comparison between that complex material and something more common and understandable.

It goes something like this - The Nucleotides are like letters, the Exons are like words, a Gene is like a sentence, a Genome is like a book, etc., at least that is how I approached it. This is all very simplistic (by design) , but it usually helps get the basic points across.
I was always sure to make it clear that this is pretty much where the analogy ends. I would explain that genes can be very different from sentences, that genomes, unlike books, contain lots of 'chapters' repeated over and over, or parts of them repeated, etc., but again, that the analogy was good enough to get the basics across.

It seems that many people never got that caution, and were apparently told, or it was implied, that the analogy is almost exactly a 1-to-1 directly applicable comparison. And many of those same folks read a book or more likely an internet essay about "genetic information", where direct "information" analogies - just as inapplicable as the language analogies - are employed in which it is asserted that genes/genomes are exactly like computer code, and subject to the exact same constraints. This is why, for example, we see creationists - even on this forum, even today - claiming, for example that "rearranging the things that are already there is not new information". That claim is usually accompanied by something like "and you need new information to make a new part." I have even seem some intrepid anti-evolutionists provide specific (and wholly indefensible) numbers - one fellow claimed on another forum many years ago that 'we' needed at least 1 "brand new protein" to make a new body part, and that this required at least 333 mutations-worth of new information. I asked why, and how he knew this, but I never got a reply (of course). More recently, I had a rather well-known (at least on the internet) creationist declare that 'we' would need at least 1 million mutations to turn an ape pelvis into a human one. I asked for a list of 10 of these changes that were needed and how many mutations each would require and how he knew this. No answer, and it has been about 11 years... Anyway:

These language/computer code/ "information" constraints that are foisted upon evolution include (but are definitely not limited to):

1. You cannot just rearrange what is there and get anything new
2. You cannot just copy-paste what is already there and get anything new
3. You cannot screw up the code/word and expect something new or good to come of it

I first encountered the language analogy argument against evolution way back in the early 1990s, in the first creationism book I ever read. I don't remember the book, specifically, but I later learned that the example in this book had made the rounds and was pretty common amongst creationists. It went something like this, and it basically encompasses the three constraints above:

Here is a simple sentence: The dog ran fast. Now let us 'evolve' it: The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast. The dog dog ran fast.
The ran dog fast. The dig ran fast.

Isn't that CRAZY??? Those sentences don't make any sense! Obviously, this is not how evolution works. Because it DOESN'T work!
In reality, we see:

The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast.

Diet and the evolution of human amylase gene copy number variation
Abstract
Starch consumption is a prominent characteristic of agricultural societies and hunter-gatherers in arid environments. In contrast, rainforest and circum-arctic hunter-gatherers and some pastoralists consume much less starch1,2,3. This behavioral variation raises the possibility that different selective pressures have acted on amylase, the enzyme responsible for starch hydrolysis4. We found that copy number of the salivary amylase gene (AMY1) is correlated positively with salivary amylase protein level and that individuals from populations with high-starch diets have, on average, more AMY1 copies than those with traditionally low-starch diets. Comparisons with other loci in a subset of these populations suggest that the extent of AMY1 copy number differentiation is highly unusual. This example of positive selection on a copy number–variable gene is, to our knowledge, one of the first discovered in the human genome. Higher AMY1 copy numbers and protein levels probably improve the digestion of starchy foods and may buffer against the fitness-reducing effects of intestinal disease.

The dog dog ran fast.

Common exon duplication in animals and its role in alternative splicing
Abstract
When searching the genomes of human, fly and worm for cases of exon duplication, we found that about 10% of all genes contain tandemly duplicated exons. In the course of the analyses, 2438 unannotated exons were identified that are not currently included in genome databases and that are likely to be functional. The vast majority of them are likely to be involved in mutually exclusive alternative splicing events. The common nature of recent exon duplication indicates that it might have a significant role in the fast evolution of eukaryotic genes. It also provides a general mechanism for the regulation of protein function.

The ran dog fast.

Evolutionary history of exon shuffling
Abstract
Exon shuffling has been characterized as one of the major evolutionary forces shaping both the genome and the proteome of eukaryotes. This mechanism was particularly important in the creation of multidomain proteins during animal evolution, bringing a number of functional genetic novelties. Here, genome information from a variety of eukaryotic species was used to address several issues related to the evolutionary history of exon shuffling. By comparing all protein sequences within each species, we were able to characterize exon shuffling signatures throughout metazoans. Intron phase (the position of the intron regarding the codon) and exon symmetry (the pattern of flanking introns for a given exon or block of adjacent exons) were features used to evaluate exon shuffling. We confirmed previous observations that exon shuffling mediated by phase 1 introns (1-1 exon shuffling) is the predominant kind in multicellular animals. Evidence is provided that such pattern was achieved since the early steps of animal evolution, supported by a detectable presence of 1-1 shuffling units in Trichoplax adhaerens and a considerable prevalence of them in Nematostella vectensis. In contrast, Monosiga brevicollis, one of the closest relatives of metazoans, and Arabidopsis thaliana, showed no evidence of 1-1 exon or domain shuffling above what it would be expected by chance. Instead, exon shuffling events are less abundant and predominantly mediated by phase 0 introns (0-0 exon shuffling) in those non-metazoan species. Moreover, an intermediate pattern of 1-1 and 0-0 exon shuffling was observed for the placozoan T. adhaerens, a primitive animal. Finally, characterization of flanking intron phases around domain borders allowed us to identify a common set of symmetric 1-1 domains that have been shuffled throughout the metazoan lineage.

The dig ran fast.

Point Mutations with Positive Selection Were a Major Force during the Evolution of a Receptor-Kinase Resistance Gene Family of Rice
ABSTRACT
The rice (Oryza sativa) Xa26 gene, which confers resistance to bacterial blight disease and encodes a leucine-rich repeat (LRR) receptor kinase, resides at a locus clustered with tandem homologous genes. .... The family is formed by tandem duplication followed by diversification through recombination, deletion, and point mutation. Most variation among genes in the family is caused by point mutations and positive selection.

I also looked at a couple papers on the Titin gene, as I had remembered from some years ago a discussion on that gene/protein on a forum, but I could not find the paper I had used before. I did, however, come across this figure - all the red blocks are identical or nearly identical Ig-like domains:

View attachment 52913

Largest protein we make. LOTS of what we are told is not 'new information' and just 'copies of what is already there' jammed together to make a gene that makes an important protein.

That handles both the language and 'information' "arguments via analogy" I believe, but there is one more 'information' issue that I would like to address - the claim that 'just changing what is already there does not create new information, therefore, no adaptive evolution can occur' or words to that effect.

This paper documents an insertion event (a mutation in which a large chunk of DNA is inserted in one event) within the promoter region of a gene which causes the gene to be over-transcribed, i.e., just more of the same protein is made. No 'new' protein, just "information" that makes more of it. And it confers an adaptive benefit:

That analogies are not evidence will be their burden to bear.

You talk to yourself a lot, you make claims by yourself and others whom you pose as presenting my side. You question and answer yourself to impose your own views. So illogical, an anecdotal fallacious argument in which you also move the goalposts!!!

Do not talk to yourself. Talk to me about my claims not yours or others. After all the recent example of you taking to yourself, making a question in #228 and then answering yourself in #231 was not a really good example. Especially when you try to mislead others by blaming me for your own failure to read the very first line of the abstract. That wasn’t an honest argument. Was it?

It’s not worth to deceive yourself in an attempt to convince others. People will be more inclined to believe you if you are truthful and logical
 

LIIA

Well-Known Member
And for those unsure what the Genetic Code is - or those who purposefully misuse the phrase (e.g., "billions of codes" in DNA LOL!), another old post of mine:


What is the genetic code?

Seems a simple enough question, and one that a person presenting him or herself as able and informed enough to argue against evolution using genetics should be able to answer without hesitation. After all, if I were going to argue against the historicity of Jesus, who would have confidence in my position if I were to describe Him as having blue skin and standing 50 feet high? And if I continued writing about this blue, 50 foot tall Jesus despite many explaining to me that I was quite wrong? Well, I would hope you would consider me uninformed and a troll,

And yet.... one can peruse many threads on this forum - some are active now - in which creationists make claims and arguments about genetics that make it pretty clear that they think the Genetic Code is something other than it really is. This despite, in many cases, being told and provided with links and explanations as to what 'the genetic code' actually is.

One need only put 'genetic code' in your search bar - it is pretty easy! Just did it:

View attachment 53382

For more detail, we can look at the page of the National Human Genome Research Institute - they would know, right?

The instructions in a gene that tell the cell how to make a specific protein. A, C, G, and T are the "letters" of the DNA code; they stand for the chemicals adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G), and thymine (T), respectively, that make up the nucleotide bases of DNA. Each gene's code combines the four chemicals in various ways to spell out three-letter "words" that specify which amino acid is needed at every step in making a protein.
Bolding mine.
Not that hard, right? The illustration they use at the NHGRI:

Oversimplification of such an extremely complex process is a dishonest and misleading presentation.

DNA is the language of life. base pair (bp) is the unit of measurement of DNA, The amount or length of DNA is counted by using base pairs. The human genome contains about 3.2 billion base pairs. The information stored in DNA includes the blueprints that identify how proteins are built. The way base pairs store the info is analogues to a machine code/binary system.

A “bit” is the smallest unit of data in the binary system with a value of 0 or 1. Even so base pairs are way more complex than a binary digit but “bp” can be considered as the smallest increment of data as analogues to the “bit”

The binary system would appear extremely simple only 0 or 1 but programming with the machine language to engineer meaningful software is extremely complex. In fact, higher-level languages are typically used to translate our human logic to executable machine code. The programming process allows the simple alteration of 0 and 1 binary digit sequencing to create endless of logical applications in a variety of fields.

This is exactly how the "bp" in the DNA works to store encoded info within the DNA. Even in the simplest form of live or in the very beginning of the alleged first cell, unless the DNA sequencing is extremely logical, with a level of complexity unmatched in any human software engineering, and specifically programmed to carry through required processes necessary for life, life would not be possible.

It’s never a random sequencing. From the very beginning and before any evolutionary process could have played any role, this level of unmatched complexity is an absolute prerequisite for life.

The stored biological information are executable similar to the machine code to manufacture proteins from amino acids with unique specific structure and functions which are not only dependent on the DNA sequence but also on the complex mechanisms that interpret the genetic codes. The human body contains thousands of different types of proteins.

The Protein Puzzle | MaxPlanckResearch 3/2017: The Roots of Humankind (mpg.de)

Recent study on 2018 showed that there are some 42 million-protein molecules in a simple cell.

A cell holds 42 million protein molecules, scientists reveal -- ScienceDaily
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
No not 100%, again, again, I said “80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome.” See the link below.

You are terrible at this.

You wrote:


"80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans."

I asked HOW different the 80% different proteins are - what is the extent of the difference? I didn't even mention the mouse protein coding GENES (at first).

Why did you mention mouse DNA sequences after mentioning human and chimp proteins?

Why did you not mention that human and chimp protein coding gene sequences are on the order of 99% identical? Because that undermined you ID creationist agenda, so you decided to pull a switcheroo and hope nobody would notice?


I never said or implied that you claimed 100% of all proteins are different, I asked HOW much difference there is between those 80% of proteins that ARE different. Are they 100% different? or 1% different? or 0.01% different?

If someone were to write "80% of X and Y are different, so we cannot accept claims that X and Y are more similar than X and Z!" (which is in effect what you implied, IMO), would it not make sense to actually understand what that is supposed to mean?
Is citing the 80% figure supposed to imply 100% difference IN THE PROTEINS, or 1% difference? And if only a 1% difference, does that really indicate that abandoning the relevance of protein similarity is warranted?

You cannot/will not say. Interesting.

Also, no figures for mouse proteins are in your link.


Eighty percent of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees - ScienceDirect

if you don't agree with this 80% percentage, feel free to provide the correct one and lets review it, otherwise stop the fallacious games.
Fallacious games, you say? Ye who implicitly compared proteins and DNA?
Let us explore your projection.

Did YOU read that article? Allow me to highlight just the abstract for the interested:

Abstract
The chimpanzee is our closest living relative. The morphological differences between the two species are so large that there is no problem in distinguishing between them. However, the nucleotide difference between the two species is surprisingly small. The early genome comparison by DNA hybridization techniques suggested a nucleotide difference of 1–2%. Recently, direct nucleotide sequencing confirmed this estimate. These findings generated the common belief that the human is extremely close to the chimpanzee at the genetic level. However, if one looks at proteins, which are mainly responsible for phenotypic differences, the picture is quite different, and about 80% of proteins are different between the two species. Still, the number of proteins responsible for the phenotypic differences may be smaller since not all genes are directly responsible for phenotypic characters.

Interesting that they didn't realize that you wrote that human and mouse protein-encoding genes are 85% similar while human/chimp PROTEINS are only 80% identical, and conclude that golly, we need to re-write all our textbooks. Based on comparing proteins and DNA sequences. For no apparent reason.

Let us continue:

"To do this, we compiled 127 human and chimp orthologous proteins (44,000 amino acid residues) from GenBank."

127 human and chimp orthologues. There are an estimated 24000 protein coding genes in humans. Pretty small sample size. But OK - don't want to hear you complaining about other analyses not using the the whole genome.

What did you think of Table 4 when you totally read that paper?
upload_2022-4-1_9-31-10.jpeg


Of interest, and not mentioned by you, is that they only categorized the amino acid sequences as 100%, 99%, 98%, or <98%. 97% is still pretty "identical", yes?

So we have 20% IDENTICAL proteins, and 80% (of 127) that are either 99, 98, or less than 98% identical. But what is less than 98% They do not specifically say, nor do they give a lowest level identified. I will go out on a limb and predict that none of the chimp/human protein orthologs are as low as 60%, which is a number I came across elsewhere... for something else you mentioned...

Regarding you specious claim that 85% of mouse gene orthologs are identical, well, that is not in that paper.

But I did find the word "mouse" and the number "85" mentioned here:


On average, the protein-coding regions of the mouse and human genomes are 85 percent identical; some genes are 99 percent identical while others are only 60 percent identical.

What was it you wrote again? Ah yes:

80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans.

For clarity:

80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees... mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar

Hopefully you've brushed up on what the genetic code is by now, and hopefully realize that you were engaging in some dishonest bait-and-switch.

But I doubt it.
I’m not a Christian but I expect you to show respect to other people beliefs. You have your view but you don’t own the truth.
Your posts and "argument" style comes across as near 100% aligned with creationist/IDist antics - specious comparisons, easily debunked assertions, unwarranted confidence even when shown to be wrong, etc. You get the respect that is warranted.
Why are you threatened by other people views, you’re entitled to your own view.
Threatened? Hilarious. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent and distort and embellish claims to prop up YOU views? Seems that such antics are far more indicative of feeling 'threatened' than my pointing out the flaws in your sad, hackneyed, "arguments."
Relax and let’s talk as humans.
The humans I respect and trust do not feel the need to engage in deceptive antics, projective implications, the use of cherry-picked and out of context assertions, etc.

Speaking of which, the same year your linked and paraphrased paper came out, a rather in-depth comparison of the entire human/chimp genomes was published.
Darn it if I didn't find some "juicy quotes" relevant to your claims in
an overview of it:

The consortium found that the chimp and human genomes are very similar and encode very similar proteins. The DNA sequence that can be directly compared between the two genomes is almost 99 percent identical. When DNA insertions and deletions are taken into account, humans and chimps still share 96 percent of their sequence. At the protein level, 29 percent of genes code for the same amino sequences in chimps and humans. In fact, the typical human protein has accumulated just one unique change since chimps and humans diverged from a common ancestor about 6 million years ago.

But sure.... "80% of proteins are different between humans and chimpanzees regardless of alleged similarity between humans and chimpanzees genome. Mice protein-encoding genes are 85% similar to humans." totally trumps that...
 

Attachments

  • upload_2022-4-1_9-30-52.jpeg
    upload_2022-4-1_9-30-52.jpeg
    27 KB · Views: 1

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Oversimplification of such an extremely complex process is a dishonest and misleading presentation.

DNA is the language of life. base pair (bp) is the unit of measurement of DNA, The amount or length of DNA is counted by using base pairs. The human genome contains about 3.2 billion base pairs. The information stored in DNA includes the blueprints that identify how proteins are built. The way base pairs store the info is analogues [sic] to a machine code/binary system.

All that gibberish to hide the fact that you rely on analogies, just as I implied.

I have typically found that the more verbose a response is to a simple issue the more likely it is to be an attempt to hide behind the writer's incompetence.

Flowery prose is no match for my presentation of the simple fact - you, like most creationists, do not actually understand the things you pontificate on.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It’s not worth to deceive yourself in an attempt to convince others. People will be more inclined to believe you if you are truthful and logical
Coming from the guy that tried to conflate DNA and amino acid sequences hoping nobody would notice, this is pretty funny.

Projection is a common psychological weapon in the creationist's toolbox - right along with pontificating on matters that they are shown to be in error on.

Ooh - also you must have missed this:

More debunking of @LIIA 's special hero's claim about 70% identity between human and chimp DNA. Tomkins' claims were debunked like the day after he made them, yet this guy pops in here 7 years after the fact hawking his nonsense.... Amazing...

Chimp and Human DNA - NeuroLogica Blog

"So how does Tomkins come up with 70%. Well, he is not comparing point mutations of aligned segments. He is comparing chromosomes to see how many segments line up to some arbitrary amount. As many others have already pointed out, this result is not wrong, it’s just irrelevant. Well, it might also be wrong. Others have found it difficult to reproduce his results. But even if his analysis is accurate, it is simply the wrong analysis to apply to dating the last common ancestor."
 
Last edited:

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Amazing how much verbiage creationists will employ to avoid having to admit that their understanding of the "analogy" between actual genetic activity is not exactly like computer software/hardware is something to behold...
I first encountered the language analogy argument against evolution way back in the early 1990s, in the first creationism book I ever read. I don't remember the book, specifically, but I later learned that the example in this book had made the rounds and was pretty common amongst creationists. It went something like this, and it basically encompasses the three constraints above:

Here is a simple sentence: The dog ran fast. Now let us 'evolve' it: The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast. The dog dog ran fast.
The ran dog fast. The dig ran fast.

Isn't that CRAZY??? Those sentences don't make any sense! Obviously, this is not how evolution works. Because it DOESN'T work!​

In reality, we see:

The dog ran fast. The dog ran fast.

Diet and the evolution of human amylase gene copy number variation
Abstract
Starch consumption is a prominent characteristic of agricultural societies and hunter-gatherers in arid environments. In contrast, rainforest and circum-arctic hunter-gatherers and some pastoralists consume much less starch1,2,3. This behavioral variation raises the possibility that different selective pressures have acted on amylase, the enzyme responsible for starch hydrolysis4. We found that copy number of the salivary amylase gene (AMY1) is correlated positively with salivary amylase protein level and that individuals from populations with high-starch diets have, on average, more AMY1 copies than those with traditionally low-starch diets. Comparisons with other loci in a subset of these populations suggest that the extent of AMY1 copy number differentiation is highly unusual. This example of positive selection on a copy number–variable gene is, to our knowledge, one of the first discovered in the human genome. Higher AMY1 copy numbers and protein levels probably improve the digestion of starchy foods and may buffer against the fitness-reducing effects of intestinal disease.

The dog dog ran fast.

Common exon duplication in animals and its role in alternative splicing
Abstract
When searching the genomes of human, fly and worm for cases of exon duplication, we found that about 10% of all genes contain tandemly duplicated exons. In the course of the analyses, 2438 unannotated exons were identified that are not currently included in genome databases and that are likely to be functional. The vast majority of them are likely to be involved in mutually exclusive alternative splicing events. The common nature of recent exon duplication indicates that it might have a significant role in the fast evolution of eukaryotic genes. It also provides a general mechanism for the regulation of protein function.

The ran dog fast.

Evolutionary history of exon shuffling
Abstract
Exon shuffling has been characterized as one of the major evolutionary forces shaping both the genome and the proteome of eukaryotes. This mechanism was particularly important in the creation of multidomain proteins during animal evolution, bringing a number of functional genetic novelties. Here, genome information from a variety of eukaryotic species was used to address several issues related to the evolutionary history of exon shuffling. By comparing all protein sequences within each species, we were able to characterize exon shuffling signatures throughout metazoans. Intron phase (the position of the intron regarding the codon) and exon symmetry (the pattern of flanking introns for a given exon or block of adjacent exons) were features used to evaluate exon shuffling. We confirmed previous observations that exon shuffling mediated by phase 1 introns (1-1 exon shuffling) is the predominant kind in multicellular animals. Evidence is provided that such pattern was achieved since the early steps of animal evolution, supported by a detectable presence of 1-1 shuffling units in Trichoplax adhaerens and a considerable prevalence of them in Nematostella vectensis. In contrast, Monosiga brevicollis, one of the closest relatives of metazoans, and Arabidopsis thaliana, showed no evidence of 1-1 exon or domain shuffling above what it would be expected by chance. Instead, exon shuffling events are less abundant and predominantly mediated by phase 0 introns (0-0 exon shuffling) in those non-metazoan species. Moreover, an intermediate pattern of 1-1 and 0-0 exon shuffling was observed for the placozoan T. adhaerens, a primitive animal. Finally, characterization of flanking intron phases around domain borders allowed us to identify a common set of symmetric 1-1 domains that have been shuffled throughout the metazoan lineage.

The dig ran fast.

Point Mutations with Positive Selection Were a Major Force during the Evolution of a Receptor-Kinase Resistance Gene Family of Rice
ABSTRACT
The rice (Oryza sativa) Xa26 gene, which confers resistance to bacterial blight disease and encodes a leucine-rich repeat (LRR) receptor kinase, resides at a locus clustered with tandem homologous genes. .... The family is formed by tandem duplication followed by diversification through recombination, deletion, and point mutation. Most variation among genes in the family is caused by point mutations and positive selection.

I also looked at a couple papers on the Titin gene, as I had remembered from some years ago a discussion on that gene/protein on a forum, but I could not find the paper I had used before. I did, however, come across this figure - all the red blocks are identical or nearly identical Ig-like domains:

View attachment 52913

Largest protein we make. LOTS of what we are told is not 'new information' and just 'copies of what is already there' jammed together to make a gene that makes an important protein.

That handles both the language and 'information' "arguments via analogy" I believe, but there is one more 'information' issue that I would like to address - the claim that 'just changing what is already there does not create new information, therefore, no adaptive evolution can occur' or words to that effect.

This paper documents an insertion event (a mutation in which a large chunk of DNA is inserted in one event) within the promoter region of a gene which causes the gene to be over-transcribed, i.e., just more of the same protein is made. No 'new' protein, just "information" that makes more of it. And it confers an adaptive benefit:

A single p450 allele associated with insecticide resistance in Drosophila.
"...Transgenic analysis of Cyp6g1 shows that over-transcription of this gene alone is both necessary and sufficient for resistance. Resistance and up-regulation in Drosophila populations are associated with a single Cyp6g1 allele that has spread globally. This allele is characterized by the insertion of an Accord transposable element into the 5' end of the Cyp6g1 gene."

I'm sure the fallacy-mongers will be out in force (if they do not just ignore it all) and try to find ways to diminish or deny - I have presented the p450 many times, once had a creationist dismiss it because it did not produce a 'new limb'!! :facepalm:
:shrug:
That analogies are not evidence will be their burden to bear.
Gomer did not even bother to comment on ANY of this.

Gomer is not to be taken seriously - all hat, no cattle. AKA typical creationist.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a human said to another human look but don't touch. What are you then achieving,?

Seeing something.

Yet you are exact position a whole one human.

Who aren't you seeing as the scientists human?

The other whole one human you are balanced partnered with.

Why?

As this problem of warned destruction that humans predict by spiritual religious science terminology is only about human behaviour only.

As earth is naturally reactive a planet that no man controls.
The heavens naturally reactive that no man controls.

A human says anyone body is supported existing on earth just because the whole heavens exists. Yet you don't own it.

Some human minds seen confused about first basic just human advice. Not about coercion by science terms.

As science is used to coerce human beliefs.

Basic first concepts as two humans equal is first. So there isn't any argument about not being present in natural form unless your psyche intention is to not allow it's nature.

Ice was quantified human agreed as hot gases saviour hot waters saviour in our heavens for a stable heavens.

A stable heavens a healthy new born baby or animal life.

How has that advice changed?

Oh that's right because it's melting.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If science said perfumed human biology chemical leeching seen smelt do not hesitate ....
Made the human cell to form then instead blood be released.

The advice said changed humans biology was from within. The human living body. Its owned human's body biology converting into a non human as a Jesus determined reference.

Life being sacrificed.

As humans owned biological chemistry is not animal chemistry a human self owns human direct only.

One body owned is how an evil science theist coercing lies about biological chemical changes says atmospheric heavens God must have changed an ape having sex into a human.

As if you begin thinking you are in the apes body as the ape as the human theist does. You bandy a thesis that directly suggests no human existing anymore first.

If you place as a human theist a human babies position with and in ape genetics first two bodies ape before ape sex.
 

The Barbarian

Christian Barbarian
Darwin believed that life can be explained by natural selection based on his expectation that organic life was exceedingly simple.
He lived in a time when people believed a brood of mice could suddenly appear in a basket of dirty clothes. In other words Darwin was under the illusion that life could appear spontaneously under the right conditions. Based on this ignorance, he crafted an explanation for variation within a species, and formulated a theory explaining the process whereby life could arise from nonliving matter and mutate to the variety of living entities we see today.

This is a common misconception. Darwin made no claims about how living things began on Earth, except to suggest that God did it.

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species

Most people who think they hate science don't really know what it is.

Although not a single sector of Darwinic evolution can offer uncontested proof that it is nothing more than a imaginative theory it is acclaimed by mainstream scientists as a science.

Well, that's a testable belief. Which of Darwin's points of evolutionary theory have not been verified. Be specific and use Darwin's points, not what someone else said about it. Let's see what you have.

Lynn Margulis a distinguished University Professor of Biology puts it this way

Lynn Margulis says that all organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor. That's what you're promoting here.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If science just humans say science proves that everything came from a common ancestor. First you are all humans. Natural humans. Aware humans. Thinking humans.

With no science status as science is a human choice then agreed.

Once it said one man thought upon science then many men agreed as brothers human.

As my origin position I already knew all organisms came from the same place.

I said it was termed by a human thinker as the eternal God.

God explained is a motion G spiral O and that the stretched immaculate heavens converted by a huge force attack. Was part of the reason.

In origins was O out of earth it rolled gently smoking cooling the origin heavens.

So at the ground pushing sideways Oooooo the eternal which was never burnt never burning has spirit in it. Who we always termed was the original creator.

Surrounds space O it's body loss the hole. Maintains the fixed pressure O. All of space the hole.

As mass changed shows heated mass leaves new holes.

So the eternal God answered back ooooooO. Vibration only says the thinking. Where bio life came from in various and variant spirit bodies as same substance origin.

So I don't need sciences explanation when I can make the same claim first myself.

As no human invented the presence of anything other than a new human as a baby. Science was theoried direct to earth face as substance machine.
 
Top