Darwin's Illusion

[It Aint Necessarily So]

there is no burning hellfire where people are tortured forever

In the past, one rarely read something like this from a believer, although it's much more common today. Hell theology is evolving. It's softening. An interesting intermediate step not quite as enlightened as your opinion retains hellfire, but tries to absolve the deity of blame for a soul ending up there: "God doesn't send us to hell. We send ourselves to hell." Your read does away with hell altogether, like those who redefine hell as separation from God.

But what is the appeal of Christianity without its stick? If the thought of spending eternity worshiping the god of Abraham isn't very appealing, why be a Christian if not to avoid this god's wrath?

So, why have you abandoned the theology of hellfire, choosing to do so being what some call cafeteria Christianity? It was a choice for you. All Christians are taught hellfire, but most accept and repeat it. Not you. Did you find the thought of a god that would build a torture pit, stock it with demons, and then gratuitously keep the souls of the dead conscious just to torture them for eternity to the benefit of nobody but sadists repulsive and reject it for that reason - "My god is not that cruel"? I hope so.

A person imposing death for everyone after Adam and including Adadm who is a sinner is evil. Because ?? why again??

Stripping mankind of immortality for reasons other than his well-being including that he displeased you by eating an apple would be an immoral act by humanist standards.

you still believe lava is not sediment and cannot justify your opinions

Sediment is material that settles in liquid. The erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR) is the time it takes freshly phlebotomized blood to settle into clear, yellow plasma above opaque, maroon cells. The particulate matter at the bottom of a glass or bottle of wine is sediment. If you find sediment in your coffee, it's likely settled coffee grounds. Lava, a continuous flow of a liquid, is nothing like these other things, which comprise small, solid, discrete particles at the bottom of a liquid.

 

[cladking]

Really? Name four scientists of repute who "believe universes spring from nothing".

Google "multiverse theory".

 

[ratiocinator]

Google "multiverse theory".

Nope. No reputable scientists who "believe universes spring from nothing".

Want another go?

 

[cladking]

If it suits you to believe that all reasoning is circular ─ and knowing your antipathy to reason, I have no doubt it does ─ then who am I to stand in your way?

It certainly sounds like you don't want to believe this. Maybe you're starting with different premises that prevent you from reasoning to this very apparent truth.

Meanwhile the rational world will continue to think about things reasonably...

For the nonce perhaps. Someday science might not change one funeral at a time but rather one experiment at a time; one new paradigm at a time.

 

[cladking]

Nope. No reputable scientists who "believe universes spring from nothing".

Want another go?

Has another "theory" been pronounced heresy by Peers?! How many cosmologists have been excommunicated? I suppose some were allowed to renounce the heresy first.

 

[cladking]

Sediment is material that settles in liquid. The erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR) is the time it takes freshly phlebotomized blood to settle into clear, yellow plasma above opaque, maroon cells. The particulate matter at the bottom of a glass or bottle of wine is sediment. If you find sediment in your coffee, it's likely settled coffee grounds. Lava, a continuous flow of a liquid, is nothing like these other things, which comprise small, solid, discrete particles at the bottom of a liquid.

Of course all of reality affects all of the rest of reality all the time. Lava stratifies in its "liquid" state within the earth and some of the "sediment" will arise. Before the lava cools there will be some separation based on size and density. There are no two identical things in existence and if these processes didn't exist there would be.

You can reduce reality to definitions and experiments but it is important to remember that the definitions and axioms aren't also reduced. We can only learn about processes that compose reality one at a time but each of these processes exist all of the time.

This isn't to say you're wrong so much as there are always more perspectives.

Unfortunately science seems to pretty much have a single perspective for change in species and this perspective overlooks observation of actual speciation.

 

[ratiocinator]

Has another "theory" been pronounced heresy by Peers?! How many cosmologists have been excommunicated? I suppose some were allowed to renounce the heresy first.

What are you going on about? Universes springing from nothing has never been a theory, or even a hypothesis or conjecture as far as I know.

BTW, who are these "Peers"? Members of the UK House of Lords...?

 

[cladking]

What are you going on about? Universes springing from nothing has never been a theory, or even a hypothesis or conjecture as far as I know.

Can I get to the ends of the earth or the universe while sitting in an easy chair?

Can I build an infinite number of pyramids with an infinite number of ramps without ever building one?

Multiverse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Stoeger, Ellis, and Kircher[57]: sec. 7  note that in a true multiverse theory, "the universes are then completely disjoint and nothing that happens in any one of them is causally linked to what happens in any other one. This lack of any causal connection in such multiverses really places them beyond any scientific support".

Talk about having your cake and eating it too!!!!

In order to reason in circles we're all guilty of some doublethink.

How else does Evolution fail to explain observation?

 

[YoursTrue]

That is because I know what sediment is and you do not. I gave you the definition more than once. Lava does not meet that definition.

Why are you so desperate to call lava sediment? Please answer the question.

I'm not desperate. I will go over other definitions of lava from other sources. Do you say because National Geographic made a mistake about something else but corrected it, it cannot be trusted? You made the big deal about lava not being sediment. It comes from inside the volcano and flows on the ground and then cools. And settles there sometimes depending on situation. Want to argue with that?
And good morning!

 

[YoursTrue]

If yoy

Anyone who thinks lava is sediment has to be a moron incapable of reading. I do not believe you genuinely think that.

But just in case you actually do, lava is an extrusive igneous rock, as can easily be verified with a 2 minute internet search: Volcanic Landforms: Extrusive Igneous - Geology (U.S. National Park Service)

(”igneous”, by definition means not sedimentary: The Rock Cycle)

There really is no excuse for you to take part in a discussion like this without making any effort make rudimentary checks for yourself. To go on as you are, feigning selective ignorance and stupidity on such an epic scale, amounts to trolling, in my view.

It's an extrusive igneous rock you say. A rock??? One rock? Go ahead, explain if you want to. If not, I understand.

 

[ratiocinator]

Can I get to the ends of the earth or the universe while sitting in an easy chair?

Can I build an infinite number of pyramids with an infinite number of ramps without ever building one?

Multiverse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Talk about having your cake and eating it too!!!!

In order to reason in circles we're all guilty of some doublethink.

How else does Evolution fail to explain observation?

What are you going on about? You seem to be posting random snippets of 'thought' (in the loosest possible sense of the word).

What has any of this got to do with universes springing from nothing?

 

[exchemist]

It's an extrusive igneous rock you say. A rock??? One rock? Go ahead, explain if you want to. If not, I understand.

And the tiresome, trollish faux-stupidity continues…….

Nevertheless, as I am in an exceptionally forgiving mood, after an agreeably peaceful week on a small island in France, I shall explain. The word “rock” can refer either to an individual large chunk of stony material, or can be a collective noun denoting a type of stony material, whether in pieces or in a mass. Thus chalk is a rock, granite is a rock, etc. Lava is liquid rock, extruded (hence called extrusive) from volcanoes. When it cools and solidifies we can examine its composition, the size of the crystal grains, if any, and classify it more finely into more specific types of rock, e.g. basalt, andesite etc.

More here ( which you could easily have looked up for yourself, if you were not being deliberately obtuse): Lava | Types, Composition, Temperature, & Facts

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Universes springing from nothing has never been a theory, or even a hypothesis or conjecture as far as I know.

FYI, Lawrence Krausse has discussed the matter: A Universe from Nothing - Wikipedia

The idea occurs in a list of logically possible scenarios for why the universe exists. They are all counterintuitive in the sense that they all require that the universe either always existed, arose uncaused from nothing, or arose from something like a multiverse or a sentient creator that itself either always existed or came into being uncaused. Just as an exercise in pure reason, I think that list is exhaustive and that one must be correct, but that I have no means - no experiment, observation, or algorithm - to rule any in or out. And I say that they all seem impossible. How can something have already experienced an infinite number of consecutive instants to reach this moment? Also, how can something arise from nothing? This is why I take all of these options seriously. Something seeming impossible can't be a reason to rule it out if the alternatives seem equally impossible.

Having said all of that, my intuition is that our universe arose as an expanding bubble of sorts in a timeless, possibly unconscious substance we can call the multiverse.

It's an extrusive igneous rock. A rock??? One rock?

I think he means rock in the uncountable sense - a category of matter rather than a countable piece of hardened lava (edit - just saw his reply). Look at that word igneous. It derives from the Latin ignus, meaning fire. Igneous rock forms from the cooling of fiery lava.

Google "multiverse theory"

He asked you to name four scientists of repute who believe universes spring from nothing. The multiverse hypothesis is an alternative to something-from-nothing hypotheses.

It certainly sounds like you don't want to believe this. Maybe you're starting with different premises that prevent you from reasoning to this very apparent truth.

You said that all reasoning was circular. Unless you have private meaning for those words, the comment is just incorrect. Circular reasoning is well defined, and most arguments don't meet the criteria necessary to be called that. If you were correct, you could show the circularity in arguments such as the famous Socrates-is-mortal syllogism or the proof of the Pythagorean theorem. And if you are wrong, you can't.

Of course all of reality affects all of the rest of reality all the time.

Not everybody agrees with that. The faithful tell us of a real supernatural realm containing real supernatural beings that are undetectable, meaning that they don't interact with matter.

Lava stratifies in its "liquid" state within the earth and some of the "sediment" will arise.

Strictly speaking, it's magma in the earth, and becomes lava when extruded onto the earth's surface. I figure a guy who uses the words nonce and gainsay would want to know anything about vocabulary, because that describes me: "It would get a standing ovation for being the rescue mission that saved American democracy for the nonce, like an episode of Mission Impossible." link

What sediment? Lava contains no sediment in it. Sediment is solid, particulate matter that settles in a liquid due to gravity.

 

[YoursTrue]

And the tiresome, trollish faux-stupidity continues…….

Nevertheless, as I am in an exceptionally forgiving mood, after an agreeably peaceful week on a small island in France, I shall explain. The word “rock” can refer either to an individual large chunk of stony material, or can be a collective noun denoting a type of stony material, whether in pieces or in a mass. Thus chalk is a rock, granite is a rock, etc. Lava is liquid rock, extruded (hence called extrusive) from volcanoes. When it cools and solidifies we can examine its composition, the size of the crystal grains, if any, and classify it more finely into more specific types of rock, e.g. basalt, andesite etc.

More here ( which you could easily have looked up for yourself, if you were not being deliberately obtuse): Lava | Types, Composition, Temperature, & Facts

Everything you say demonstrates that lava is sediment. Rock(s) which comes from within the volcano (coming out as molten rock). No matter how you slice it, it's sediment. Nothing you have written shows it is anything other than sediment.

 

[YoursTrue]

And the tiresome, trollish faux-stupidity continues…….

Nevertheless, as I am in an exceptionally forgiving mood, after an agreeably peaceful week on a small island in France, I shall explain. The word “rock” can refer either to an individual large chunk of stony material, or can be a collective noun denoting a type of stony material, whether in pieces or in a mass. Thus chalk is a rock, granite is a rock, etc. Lava is liquid rock, extruded (hence called extrusive) from volcanoes. When it cools and solidifies we can examine its composition, the size of the crystal grains, if any, and classify it more finely into more specific types of rock, e.g. basalt, andesite etc.

More here ( which you could easily have looked up for yourself, if you were not being deliberately obtuse): Lava | Types, Composition, Temperature, & Facts

I looked it up. See about this, because what you post does not answer the question anyway.
"Sediment is solid material that is moved around by natural processes, like wind, water, ice, or gravity. This solid material is then deposited in a new location" Sediment - Energy Education

 

[ratiocinator]

FYI, Lawrence Krausse has discussed the matter: A Universe from Nothing - Wikipedia

Yes, I'm aware of that but it's not really literally nothing, it's as close to nothing as the laws of physics allow.

Having said all of that, my intuition is that our universe arose as an expanding bubble of sorts in a timeless, possibly unconscious substance we can call the multiverse.

It's possible but we don't actually need to imagine anything external at all. The classical general relativity view just gives us a space-time manifold that is finite in the past direction. That doesn't imply that it came out of anything. The whole manifold is essentially a four-dimensional object.

Of course, we won't know if this view remains viable within some unification of GR and quantum field theory until we have one.

 

[exchemist]

I looked it up. See about this, because what you post does not answer the question anyway.
"Sediment is solid material that is moved around by natural processes, like wind, water, ice, or gravity. This solid material is then deposited in a new location" Sediment - Energy Education

This post perfectly illustrates your technique of faux-stupidity. In my post previous to that I actually gave you a link explaining the 3 types of rock: igneous, sedimentary and metamorphic, expressly to show you that an igneous rock is by definition not sedimentary. Here it is again: The Rock Cycle

Read it. It won’t take you long. When you have, get back to me and then we can move on. But my guess is you either won’t read it, so as to preserve your pretended ignorance intact, or you will read it and hunt desperately for some way to misunderstand what it says, in order to slow down the discussion and avoid getting back to the original point, which is how we can estimate the age of rocks.

I look forward with amusement to see which path of dishonesty you choose.

 

[YoursTrue]

And the tiresome, trollish faux-stupidity continues…….

Nevertheless, as I am in an exceptionally forgiving mood, after an agreeably peaceful week on a small island in France, I shall explain. The word “rock” can refer either to an individual large chunk of stony material, or can be a collective noun denoting a type of stony material, whether in pieces or in a mass. Thus chalk is a rock, granite is a rock, etc. Lava is liquid rock, extruded (hence called extrusive) from volcanoes. When it cools and solidifies we can examine its composition, the size of the crystal grains, if any, and classify it more finely into more specific types of rock, e.g. basalt, andesite etc.

More here ( which you could easily have looked up for yourself, if you were not being deliberately obtuse): Lava | Types, Composition, Temperature, & Facts

This post perfectly illustrates your technique of faux-stupidity. In my post previous to that I actually gave you a link explaining the 3 types of rock: igneous, sedimentary and metamorphic, expressly to show you that an igneous rock is by definition not sedimentary. Here it is again: The Rock Cycle

Read it. It won’t take you long. When you have, get back to me and then we can move on. But my guess is you either won’t read it, so as to preserve your pretended ignorance intact, or you will read it and hunt desperately for some way to misunderstand what it says, in order to slow down the discussion and avoid getting back to the original point, which is how we can estimate the age of rocks.

I look forward with amusement to see which path of dishonesty you choose.

Enjoy:
"Sediment - Material derived from pre-existing rock, from biogenic sources, or precipitated by chemical processes, and deposited at, or near, the Earth's surface." - Oxford Dictionary of Geology & Earth Sciences.

 

[YoursTrue]

Your mythical beliefs about hell are not what we are talking about. Why are you running away? Do you know that you are wrong? It seems that way. Someone debating honestly does not act in this manner.

so why complain about death as if you think it's evil of God to impose death? Don't you like the idea of death? You're the one complaining, although I'm not a big fan of death. You, however, believe it's a part (I use the word as carefully as possible) of life via the "process of evolution."

 

[John53]

3 days without a weather radar is starting to take a toll.