Dating Preferences: Bigotry or a Right?

[Thana]

Since you find trans people so icky, sinful and morally depraved, just let us all know beforehand before we dare to interact with you. Then we won't have to deal with your bigotry towards us and we won't stress your delicate mind. Happy endings for all around.

Now you're just projecting. I don't find them icky, sinful or morally depraved. I just don't like transexuality itself. Transexuals are still people, and I think of them as such. And that's why I hold them to the ideal that they shouldn't lie about their sexuality anymore than I should lie about mine.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Now you're just projecting. I don't find them icky, sinful or morally depraved. I just don't like transexuality itself. Transexuals are still people, and I think of them as such. And that's why I hold them to the ideal that they shouldn't lie about their sexuality anymore than I should lie about mine.

I'm not projecting anything. I'm just getting to the point. You're the one with the problem so you should be the one who brings it up. If you don't want anything to do with trans people, make it clear and you'll find that we'll stay away from you. Because why in the world would we want to subject ourselves to that? I don't even hang out or socialize with transphobic people, let alone want to **** or date them.

 

[Wirey]

I'm not projecting anything. I'm just getting to the point. You're the one with the problem so you should be the one who brings it up. If you don't want anything to do with trans people, make it clear and you'll find that we'll stay away from you. Because why in the world would we want to subject ourselves to that? I don't even hang out or socialize with transphobic people, let alone want to **** them.

I think you might be wasting the effort. People who say things like "I hate homosexuality, but not homosexuals" are actually saying "I think I've found a socially acceptable way to be a bigot." I'm not attracted to guys, and I have no idea how I'd react to finding out a woman I was planning to sleep with was a man (I'd probably pretend not to know until she got clingy, and then use it as an excuse to dump her), but I'd never say I have an issue with something I'm incapable of understanding.

 

[Thana]

I'm not projecting anything. I'm just getting to the point. You're the one with the problem so you should be the one who brings it up. If you don't want anything to do with trans people, make it clear and you'll find that we'll stay away from you. Because why in the world would we want to subject ourselves to that? I don't even hang out or socialize with transphobic people, let alone want to **** or date them.

Not wanting to have sex with a transexual doesn't make someone transphobic.

And I would never actually say anything about my thoughts on transexuality, because it's unnecessary. I don't like it, that's that. I still like transexuals as people though and I respect their choices and think they should live in whatever way makes them happy, so there's no need for any hostility. I don't begrudge you anything, all I expect is honesty between sexual partners and potential sexual partners. Is that so terrible of me? Jeez.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not wanting to have sex with a transexual doesn't make someone transphobic.

We're far past that point. It's much more than you simply having a preference for certain organs or whatever (which I don't really care about; if you love men who have a penis that ejaculates semen, that's your own business and that in of itself doesn't a bigot make). It's other things you've said.

And I would never actually say anything about my thoughts on transexuality, because it's unnecessary. I don't like it, that's that. I still like transexuals as people though and I respect their choices and think they should live in whatever way makes them happy, so there's no need for any hostility. I don't begrudge you anything, all I expect is honesty between sexual partners. Is that so terrible of me? Jeez.

First off, it's "transsexualism', not "transsexuality". It's not a sexual orientation. That's a different thing. It refers to not identifying with and changing from the sex you were assigned at birth. I was assigned "female" at birth, but I don't identify with that and am taking steps to change that, socially, medically and legally. So I'm a transsexual man.

If you don't want to date or have sex with a transsexual, that's your choice and I'm not saying that's invalid or makes you a bad person. The issue to me is what tends to be wrapped up around that. I'm seeing a lot of posts that are basically denying that trans people are who we say we are, that we're effectively "tricking" people and so on. Like there's some conspiracy on the part of trans people to get unsuspecting cis people (cis/cisgender/cissexual refers to people whose identities and such are in alignment with their bodies, social roles, etc. - "non-trans" people) to sleep with us. There really isn't. Disclosure in our community is a very touchy subject and the biggest reason for that is the threat of violence, especially for trans women.

In a lot of communities and situations, it's very dangerous for a trans woman to be open about being trans. The rates of violent assault, rape and murder for trans women are much higher than for lesbians, gays, bisexuals or women in general. It can be very scary for a trans woman. So many of them try to live "stealth" for that and other reasons (such as just wanting to be treated like a regular woman and not "othered", as trans people tend to be). So you have to understand first that this is a very touchy subject for our community. It's literally a matter of life or death for many of us.

Trans men sometimes have similar issues, but it's much less than for trans women, because of the effects of hormones and general biology. Testosterone therapy has a tendency to make a trans guy pretty indistinguishable from a non-trans man pretty quickly. A lot of trans women have more difficulty "passing" as women, depending on a number of things. (Not all, obviously. There's many, many trans women who looked extremely feminine before they even transitioned.)

 

[Thana]

We're far past that point. It's much more than you simply having a preference for certain organs or whatever (which I don't really care about; if you love men who have a penis that ejaculates semen, that's your own business and that in of itself doesn't a bigot make). It's other things you've said.

First off, it's "transsexualism', not "transsexuality". It's not a sexual orientation. That's a different thing. It refers to not identifying with and changing from the sex you were assigned at birth. I was assigned "female" at birth, but I don't identify with that and am taking steps to change that, socially, medically and legally. So I'm a transsexual man.

If you don't want to date or have sex with a transsexual, that's your choice and I'm not saying that's invalid or makes you a bad person. The issue to me is what tends to be wrapped up around that. I'm seeing a lot of posts that are basically denying that trans people are who we say we are, that we're effectively "tricking" people and so on. Like there's some conspiracy on the part of trans people to get unsuspecting cis people (cis/cisgender/cissexual refers to people whose identities and such are in alignment with their bodies, social roles, etc. - "non-trans" people) to sleep with us. There really isn't. Disclosure in our community is a very touchy subject and the biggest reason for that is the threat of violence, especially for trans women.

In a lot of communities and situations, it's very dangerous for a trans woman to be open about being trans. The rates of violent assault, rape and murder for trans women are much higher than for lesbians, gays, bisexuals or women in general. It can be very scary for a trans woman. So many of them try to live "stealth" for that and other reasons (such as just wanting to be treated like a regular woman and not "othered", as trans people tend to be). So you have to understand first that this is a very touchy subject for our community. It's literally a matter of life or death for many of us.

I understand that.
But that's not the issue, the issue is revealing it to someone you want or expect to have sex with. That's the right thing to do, and anything else is tricking them, because you know there are some people out there that wouldn't be okay with it, and not checking to see if your potential sex partner is okay with it is deliberately disrespecting their sexuality and feelings.

And I understand not wanting to reveal it to strangers for fear of your wellbeing, but that's not what I was talking about.

 

[dgirl1986]

It would be absurd to make someone date a person they have 0 interest in.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, their sins aren't on you. But what you do affects people, whether you like it or not, and tricking someone into having sex with you is wrong.

There is no tricking. There is no deception. The only lies that are told are from those who deny transsexuals and swear up and down and insist they are still their birth-assigned sex.

And having sex with a transexual, to them, is not heterosexual. And if you can't respect that, then why should anyone respect you and your transexuality?

When is it ever acceptable for a minority group that isn't harming anyone to just have to deal with the way things are? Were people concerned about the way people felt when racial segregation was forcefully ended? Obviously not! Women in the work place? Screw 'em! We shouldn't tell people to shut and just accept that society discriminates, beats them down, and just doesn't help. I shouldn't have to walk on egg shells to "respect" views that are wrong. Trans-women are women, and trans-men are men. Society is the only one that makes a distinction, and insist that we wear a neon badge as a constant reminder, to us the world, of our otherness. Heaven forbid that we change our views of transsexuals to mutilated deranged sexual deviants into an image of just a regular person.

You know it's wrong to do it, you just don't care.

What is wrong is to just let society kick me, keep me down, and not do anything about it. If there is a problem, you don't just say "oh well, that's just the way things are." No, you work to change things to make circumstances more equitable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But that's not the issue, the issue is revealing it to someone you want or expect to have sex with.

Name something else that people are expected to disclose before having sex? They don't have to disclose their vaccination records, their psychological records, what fetishes and kinks they have, how many partners they've had - NONE of that is expected to be disclosed, but yet transsexuals are expected to yield and bow and just accept that others see them as different rather than working towards what should be, and that is that people see us as no different.

 

[SomeRandom]

If someone is presenting as a male and has a penis, if someone is presenting as a woman and has a vagina, where is the lie?

So we're talking about post op? Well then if you're in a long term relationship that should still be discussed somewhere down the track. I support people doing whatever they want in order to be happy. But the truth is a trans gendered person was born the wrong sex. So it's still a lie to say you were always a male or a female.
A relationship, a meaningful one is built upon trust and honesty. If a person can accept your baggage, which in today's era does include surgery to align your sex to the appropriate one, then congrats. You've found a person worthy of you.

If a man can't accept that I go against the cultural norms of my background (which is more strict than Westerners and somehow more lax both at the same time. No small feat!) then said man should find someone else.

Being required to disclose your medical history, especially if there is nothing that puts a potential partner at risk, is not normal. At all.

Umm yes it is. If, for example, you have a heart condition that renders pregnancy dangerous, it's normal for you to tell your partner. The heart condition won't affect said partner, nor will the partner catch it. But it is pertinent to be honest and open about such things. Because that's what a relationship is. Being honest with each other and if you've found the right person, then he or she will accept you as is.
Now don't get me wrong, being transgender isn't a disease (or is it.. now? I can't keep up with the DSM thingy. Whatever.) But one's medical history including things that will not affect nor infect one's partner is absolutely relevant to discuss in a normal relationship.
As is sexual fantasies. Likes, dislikes etc.
If today's society wants to be open and accepting, then part of that is being given the choice to be open and accepting. One can't do that if a person withholds information from their partner. Otherwise you just sweep it under the rug, ignoring it without any discussion. If today's generation is caring less and less about this stuff, then it stands to reason that it's only fair that they put that thinking to the test and are told about such things up front in a relationship.

If someone is presenting as a male and has a penis, if someone is presenting as a woman and has a vagina, what is the preference that isn't being made just by what's going on, and what is the issue?

Honesty. If you can't trust your significant other to accept your baggage, whether that be a totally other life or sexual proclivities or whatever, then why should they trust you?
You have to give people the option of full consent.
If one doesn't know everything about the situation they are agreeing to then it's not consent.

 

[Thana]

Name something else that people are expected to disclose before having sex? They don't have to disclose their vaccination records, their psychological records, what fetishes and kinks they have, how many partners they've had - NONE of that is expected to be disclosed, but yet transsexuals are expected to yield and bow and just accept that others see them as different rather than working towards what should be, and that is that people see us as no different.

STD's are expected to be revealed, because it can harm their partner.
If they're rough in bed, because they can harm their partner.
If they have any kinks that would be unexpected in the bed, because they can shock/harm their partner.
If they have any disabilities or deformities, because they can shock or turn off their partner or require special methods/education/toys.
And if they are transsexual, because they can shock/turn off/psychologically harm their partner.

I think those things are generally expected to be revealed before sex.

 

[Thana]

There is no tricking. There is no deception. The only lies that are told are from those who deny transsexuals and swear up and down and insist they are still their birth-assigned sex.

It is a deception, because you know that some people don't consider transsexual sex as heterosexual sex, but you'd force your ideals on them anyway because you don't respect their sexuality. But hypocritically, you expect us all to cater to you.

When is it ever acceptable for a minority group that isn't harming anyone to just have to deal with the way things are? Were people concerned about the way people felt when racial segregation was forcefully ended? Obviously not! Women in the work place? Screw 'em! We shouldn't tell people to shut and just accept that society discriminates, beats them down, and just doesn't help. I shouldn't have to walk on egg shells to "respect" views that are wrong. Trans-women are women, and trans-men are men. Society is the only one that makes a distinction, and insist that we wear a neon badge as a constant reminder, to us the world, of our otherness. Heaven forbid that we change our views of transsexuals to mutilated deranged sexual deviants into an image of just a regular person.

No. Just stop with the persecution complex.
If you want people to respect your ideals and sexuality than you better reciprocate or else you have no cause to complain. Simple as that.

What is wrong is to just let society kick me, keep me down, and not do anything about it. If there is a problem, you don't just say "oh well, that's just the way things are." No, you work to change things to make circumstances more equitable.

I'm not saying it's not hard for you, but things are hard for everyone. Everyone has their lot in life.
And none of it's an excuse to force your ideology onto people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand that.
But that's not the issue, the issue is revealing it to someone you want or expect to have sex with. That's the right thing to do, and anything else is tricking them, because you know there are some people out there that wouldn't be okay with it, and not checking to see if your potential sex partner is okay with it is deliberately disrespecting their sexuality and feelings.

And I understand not wanting to reveal it to strangers for fear of your wellbeing, but that's not what I was talking about.

Speaking for myself, personally, I'm very open about being a trans man in my life. It's not something I hide. (I'm a bit of an "out and proud" type, so everyone who has a problem with it can **** off as far as I'm concerned.) So this is personally not an issue I have. If person gets that far with me, they know damn well what they're getting. (Literally, because I'm not shy about sexy pictures and videos.)

But I do recognize that, for some, it is a very difficult situation and I would have to know the exact situation they're in to give effective advice/opinions on the matter.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Umm yes it is. If, for example, you have a heart condition that renders pregnancy dangerous, it's normal for you to tell your partner.

That still resorts in potentially harming another.

A relationship, a meaningful one is built upon trust and honesty. If a person can accept your baggage, which in today's era does include surgery to align your sex to the appropriate one, then congrats. You've found a person worthy of you.

Long term relationships are when you do disclose things.

STD's are expected to be revealed, because it can harm their partner.

Those spread infections and cause harm.

If they're rough in bed, because they can harm their partner.

You said it yourself, it can cause harm.

If they have any kinks that would be unexpected in the bed, because they can shock/harm their partner.

If you have any weird kinks, it's just smart sex to bring them up before trying them. Being transsexual is not a kink or a fetish.

If they have any disabilities or deformities, because they can shock or turn off their partner or require special methods/education/toys.

If it's for their own good and necessary for them to perform, but that still is not comparable to being expected to disclose to potential sex partners you're transsexual.

And if they are transsexual, because they can shock/turn off/psychologically harm their partner.

That seems more their problem than mine. Kinda like how some people get turned off, shocked, or disturbed over tattoos, piercings, and other body modifications. That's their issue, not mine.

It is a deception, because you know that some people don't consider transsexual sex as heterosexual sex,

That's their problem, not mine. Some people think fat girls do it better, but that is just their opinion. That some people don't consider transsexual sex heterosexual sex, that is their opinion because they are having sex with someone who is physically and psychologically their preferred sex.

I'm not saying it's not hard for you, but things are hard for everyone. Everyone has their lot in life.

And that doesn't mean we should just have to take it. When we have difficulties, we do something about them. We don't say "oh well," we strive to better ourselves, our position, our communities.

And none of it's an excuse to force your ideology onto people.

When someone is being unfairly beaten down, expected to yield to unfair demands, discriminated against, targeted, yes, it is very appropriate to say "**** them" and just go and live your own life. You can't force people to change, but if society is treating you unfairly, you should be expected to endure the unfair treatment for the sake of those treating you unfairly and poorly.

 

[Thana]

That seems more their problem than mine. Kinda like how some people get turned off, shocked, or disturbed over tattoos, piercings, and other body modifications. That's their issue, not mine.

That's their problem, not mine. Some people think fat girls do it better, but that is just their opinion. That some people don't consider transsexual sex heterosexual sex, that is their opinion because they are having sex with someone who is physically and psychologically their preferred sex.

And that doesn't mean we should just have to take it. When we have difficulties, we do something about them. We don't say "oh well," we strive to better ourselves, our position, our communities.

When someone is being unfairly beaten down, expected to yield to unfair demands, discriminated against, targeted, yes, it is very appropriate to say "**** them" and just go and live your own life. You can't force people to change, but if society is treating you unfairly, you should be expected to endure the unfair treatment for the sake of those treating you unfairly and poorly.

It's not your problem, it's their problem.
So you admit that you don't give a crap, right? I mean you just said it, it's their problem not yours. So you don't respect their feelings or sexuality then? That's fine, I just want you to admit it. Admit that you're a gosh damn hypocrite, who wants people to acknowledge your sexuality whilst you blatantly dismiss sexualities that don't acquiesce to yours.

And I don't think it's unfair or discriminatory or even rude to expect honesty from a potential sex partner especially about their body since it's something you're both going to share.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So you admit that you don't give a crap, right?

I give a crap about myself and those like me being unfairly rejected, stigmatized, expected to yield, pushed aside, beat down, looked down upon, the majority's desire that we not be assimilated and accepted, and being expected to permanently label ourselves as others.

 

[crossfire]

Name something else that people are expected to disclose before having sex? They don't have to disclose their vaccination records, their psychological records, what fetishes and kinks they have, how many partners they've had - NONE of that is expected to be disclosed, but yet transsexuals are expected to yield and bow and just accept that others see them as different rather than working towards what should be, and that is that people see us as no different.

Actually, I would want to know these things (well, except maybe the vaccination records.) There are probably a few more things I'd add to that list, as well. This would apply toward any potential partner.

 

[SomeRandom]

That still resorts in potentially harming another.

Not if it's something discussed within the first few dates. Unless we're counting family.

Long term relationships are when you do disclose things.

Yes and so are one night stands. If a person who is into hardcore BDSM picks up a stranger at a bar, it's in everyone's best interests that night for said person to say "look, I like BDSM. That's what turns me on. So are you up for it or not?"
It's just common courtesy in the dating world. And ensures that both parties are satisfied by the night's events.

And like it or not you're in a unique position which means you do have another bit of "baggage" (for lack of a better term) to worry about that no one else has, maybe with the exception of hermaphrodites/intersexed people, I guess?
Again, unless you're fully okay with having sex with someone without trust or honesty. I'd still contend it's a ****ty thing to do.

Maybe you can do what gay people are already doing. Organize events to draw in a specific crowd for the purpose of dating and making friends.
Host an open to anyone interested dating place/website for trans gendered people and people who genuinely are very open to the prospect of dating people who are trans. It would eliminate a lot of the awkwardness and instead allow people to breathe freely. An environment where everyone can be open and honest without fear of being judged. Because the people attending such an event would already be open and accepting.
I mean, hell there's already gay only comic conventions and even gay only gaming conventions. (I mean yeah some bigots try to kick up a stink when such events happen. But the rest of the people in the relevant communities generally view such fuss makers with contempt.)
Not saying you have to of course. Just saying it might make the dating process easier by way of eliminating those who are not worth your time faster.

 

[Thana]

I give a crap about myself and those like me being unfairly rejected, stigmatized, expected to yield, pushed aside, beat down, looked down upon, the majority's desire that we not be assimilated and accepted, and being expected to permanently label ourselves as others.

Well, there you go.
You're such a victim that you're willing to victimize others because you prioritize your ideology above others, and are happy to shove it down people's throats.

It's almost poetic.

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, if you do not support transsexuals as human beings who deserve the same rights, respect and protections as non-trans people, do not accept us as we are and for who we say we are, you are a transphobe.

Ah so according to you Cispeople have no right to refuse intimate relationships with Transpeople. Because that is what you are writing.
Anyone has the right to refuse intimate relationships with anyone based on his or her preference, state of mind, mood or whether it rained that day. Be it before or during the intimate relationship.

That is a fact. And if you are against that you are still calling for something that I won't name.


You can just write "I am in favour of people refusing intimate relationships with other people based on their own preference at any given time before or during the intimate relationship" and I will let it drop.