Day of judgement (Quran)

[InvestigateTruth]

Could you post a couple of 'original' verses along with a verifiable reference or two...?

Thanks...

It depends what subject you would like. My intention was to be brief, But since I'm not sure what would be interest to you, I chose a few:


This is from the Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MINDS TO KNOW AND EARS TO HEAR! The first call of the Beloved is this: O mystic nightingale! Abide not but in the rose-garden of the spirit. O messenger of the Solomon of love! Seek thou no shelter except in the Sheba of the well-beloved, and O immortal phoenix! dwell not save on the mount of faithfulness. Therein is thy habitation, if on the wings of thy soul thou soarest to the realm of the infinite and seekest to attain thy goal."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 22


and I selected this from The Most Holy Tablet:

"Say, did ye not hearken to the Voice of the Crier*, calling aloud in the wilderness of the Bayán, bearing unto you the glad-tidings of the coming of your Lord, the All-Merciful? Lo! He is come in the sheltering shadow of Testimony, invested with conclusive proof and evidence, and those who truly believe in Him regard His presence as the embodiment of the Kingdom of God. Blessed is the man who turneth towards Him, and woe betide such as deny or doubt Him." Baha'i'llah, Selected from The most Holy Tablet, Page 12:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17


(* For your info, The Bab was the 'Crier' of Baha'u'llah, for the Christians the Bab is the return of John the Baptist. In one of His Books, Called Book of Bayán, the Bab gave the good news, 19 years prior to Baha'u'llah's decleration and asked people constantly to obey when Baha'u'llah ("Him Whom God shall make manifest") appears. )

This is selected from Book of Certitude:

" They that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets." Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude, Page 3:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

and this is from the writings of the Bab:

"O PEOPLE of the Bayán! If ye believe in Him Whom God shall make manifest, to your own behoof do ye believe. He hath been and ever will remain independent of all men. For instance, were ye to place unnumbered mirrors before the sun, they would all reflect the sun and produce impressions thereof, whereas the sun is in itself wholly independent of the existence of the mirrors and of the suns which they reproduce. Such are the bounds of the contingent beings in their relation to the manifestation of the Eternal Being..." The Bab, Bayan, page 93:


Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 93

 

[Bowman]

It depends what subject you would like. My intention was to be brief, But since I'm not sure what would be interest to you, I chose a few:


This is from the Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLE THAT HAVE MINDS TO KNOW AND EARS TO HEAR! The first call of the Beloved is this: O mystic nightingale! Abide not but in the rose-garden of the spirit. O messenger of the Solomon of love! Seek thou no shelter except in the Sheba of the well-beloved, and O immortal phoenix! dwell not save on the mount of faithfulness. Therein is thy habitation, if on the wings of thy soul thou soarest to the realm of the infinite and seekest to attain thy goal."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 22

This first one seems to have blended previous scriptures.

What is the oldest extant manuscript for this?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This first one seems to have blended previous scriptures.

What is the oldest extant manuscript for this?

Yes, The Hidden words of Baha'u'llah has reference to older scriptures, as Baha'u'llah Himself said in the begining of Hidden Words:


"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue. " Baha'u'llah - Hidden Words:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 3

The Hidden Words is a book written in Baghdad around 1857:

Hidden Words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bowman]

Yes, The Hidden words of Baha'u'llah has reference to older scriptures, as Baha'u'llah Himself said in the begining of Hidden Words:


"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue. " Baha'u'llah - Hidden Words:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 3

The Hidden Words is a book written in Baghdad around 1857:

Hidden Words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is rather recent vintage...yes?

Does it ever proclaim to be divinely inspired?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, Baha'u'llah recieved His revelation in year 1852. The Hidden Words was revealed about 5 years after that in 1857. For some history, I refer you to this site:

Bahaullah (Baha'u'llah)

 

[Bowman]

Yes, Baha'u'llah recieved His revelation in year 1852. The Hidden Words was revealed about 5 years after that in 1857. For some history, I refer you to this site:

Bahaullah (Baha'u'llah)

Thanks for the link, brother...

However...do any of your scriptures actually plainly state that they were divinely inspired?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for the link, brother...

However...do any of your scriptures actually plainly state that they were divinely inspired?

Clearly yes. All of them! Here are some examples:



"O ye peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness.

Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!" The Most Holy Book:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 19-34


Also in The Book of Certitude:

"Thus hath it been revealed aforetime, were ye to comprehend."
"Revealed by the “Bá” and the “Há.”


For More questions about the Baha'i faith, please make a thread in the Baha'i Forum. We will answer all your questions.

Let's keep this thread for the "Day of Judgment in Qur'an"
Thanks!

 

[Bowman]

Clearly yes. All of them! Here are some examples:



"O ye peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments are the lamps of My loving providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful care and loving-kindness.

Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!" The Most Holy Book:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 19-34


Also in The Book of Certitude:

"Thus hath it been revealed aforetime, were ye to comprehend."
"Revealed by the “Bᔠand the “Há.”


For More questions about the Baha'i faith, please make a thread in the Baha'i Forum. We will answer all your questions.

Let's keep this thread for the "Day of Judgment in Qur'an"
Thanks!

Although none of the passages that you referenced state that the text was divinely inspired, I appreciate your effort in the matter, and perhaps we can discuss in another thread at another time....thanks...

 

[A Thousand Suns]

According to Quran, the interpretation of the figurative verses of Quran, is unknown to everyone except for God:

For example??

We believe the answer is in Quran

You believe ?? there is a big difference in believing and actual reality

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For example??

You believe ?? there is a big difference in believing and actual reality

yes, I agree, there is a big difference in believing and actual reality.
Our belief is based on the proofs which are given in the verses of God. Note that I have read the Quran and the Bible in details many times as well as several of the Baha'i Books. and based on that, I found the truth in the Baha'i Faith.

So, one of the fundamental teachings of the Baha'i faith is to 'investigate truth independently'. That means, not just follow what our fathers believed, but rather investigate the truth without any bias! That's why all of the Baha'is just upto about 150 years ago had other faiths such as Islam, Christianity, Jewish and others. But after they investigated, they found the truth in the Baha'i Faith.

I refer you to the Book of Certitude as your starting point. I have already posted several links above. Have you read those yet? you can find many examples there. It really takes years to read only some of them and understand them. Once you read them, then If you have questions, please post them in the Baha'i Faith section, I and other guys, when our time permits will answer your questions. As I work fulltime and my time is limited, my personal intention is not to get involved in arguing the details of them. I am sorry but It would be really too much to discuss them if you haven't read them yet, that's why I prefer to refer you to the links I put in the previous posts.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

yes, I agree, there is a big difference in believing and actual reality.

Many people in this world believe that what they follow is reality but in fact the actual reality is totally different----the reality they see is nothing more than a mere mirage

'Most of them follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture is no substitute for the truth. God is fully aware of everything they do.' (10:36)

Our belief is based on the proofs which are given in the verses of God. Note that I have read the Quran and the Bible in details many times as well as several of the Baha'i Books. and based on that, I found the truth in the Baha'i Faith.

I havent read Baha'i theology but i have studied all the major religions of world in detail ----- and considering all the world scripture Baha'i theology that someone was divinely inspired after death of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) couldn't be correct---and prove you that From all major religious scripture

So, one of the fundamental teachings of the Baha'i faith is to 'investigate truth independently'. That means, not just follow what our fathers believed, but rather investigate the truth without any bias!

Thats true,so does Islam

'They found their parents astray. And they blindly followed in their footsteps.' (37:69-70)

According to Quran, the interpretation of the figurative verses of Quran, is unknown to everyone except for God:

And Btw you didn't showed the verse from Quran which couldn't be interpreted??

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I havent read Baha'i theology

Then you cannot judge about it.

I don't insist that you read them. it's totally upto you
But if you want to discuss with me regarding my comments, then I can do that only if you atleast read some.

that someone was divinely inspired after death of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) couldn't be correct

The belief about the finality of Islam is only due to misinterpretation of Quran and some sayings.

You seem to ignore the proofs! I already posted a link to answer that, but for your ease I post it again here, just in case you missed it. Why don't you read it first, then we can discuss about it? This is written by a Baha'i scholar:

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

Also, I selected some Verses from the Surah of the Temple revealed by Baha'u'llah to answer your question farther:

"Say: The Word of God can never be confounded with the words of His creatures. It is, in truth, the King of words, even as He is Himself the sovereign Lord of all, and His Cause transcendeth all that was and all that shall be. "

"Among the infidels are those who have repudiated His Self and risen up
against His Cause, and who claim that these divine verses are contrived. Such also
were the objections of the deniers of old, who now implore deliverance from the Fire.

Say: Woe betide you for the idle words that proceed from your mouths! If these
verses be indeed contrived, then by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it,
if ye be men of understanding!

Whensoever We revealed Our clear verses unto such men, they rejected them, and whensoever they beheld that which the combined forces of the earth are powerless to produce, they pronounced it sorcery. "

"Say: Would ye repeat that which the unbelievers uttered when a Message came unto them from their Lord? Woe betide you, O assemblage of foolish ones, and blighted be your works!"

"Say: Nothing can withstand the power of Our might or interrupt the course of Our command. We exalt whomsoever We please unto the Realm of supernal might and glory, and, should We so desire, cause the same to sink into the lowest abyss of degradation." Baha'ullah, Surah of Hekal:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 3-54

---From all major religious scripture

You seemed to ignore the Baha'i faith has 200 Volumes of Scriptures!.
Baha'i faith started in the 19th century, and has grown to about 6-7 millions. according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, it's the second most spread religion before Christianity. Clearly it's a major religion!

It took 300 years for Christianity to just be spread around the earth. The baha'i faith started about 150 yrs ago, already spread!

And Btw you didn't showed the verse from Quran which couldn't be interpreted??

At least read from the above link, to get some idea. Then we can discuss them here. Fair enough?

 

[Bowman]

You seemed to ignore the Baha'i faith has 200 Volumes of Scriptures!.

Can you please quote us some original Baha'i creation of the Universe/earth scriptures...?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you please quote us some original Baha'i creation of the Universe/earth scriptures...?

Basically, the Baha'i view is that, human had always existed from eternity with God. Although His creation is gradual and evolutionary, but a human never was an animal, even if he totally looked different. Here I found some quotes for you, (there are more, but 'Some Answered Question' explains it well)

“Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence—that is to say, this endless universe—has no beginning.
….a creator without a creature is impossible….If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God. Moreover, absolute nonexistence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely nonexistent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal—that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end—it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end.”

"...man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power. It is certain that in the beginning he had not this loveliness and grace and elegance, and that he only by degrees attained this shape, this form, this beauty and this grace. There is no doubt that the human embryo did not at once appear in this form; neither did it then become the manifestation of the words “Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers."
Gradually it passed through various conditions and different shapes, until it attained this form and beauty, this perfection, grace and loveliness. Thus it is evident and confirmed that the development and growth of man on this earth, until he reached his present perfection, resembled the growth and development of the embryo in the womb of the mother: by degrees it passed from condition to condition, from form to form, from one shape to another, for this is according to the requirement of the universal system and Divine Law....
Man was always a distinct species, a man, not an animal. So, if the embryo of man in the womb of the mother passes from one form to another so that the second form in no way resembles the first, is this a proof that the species has changed? that it was at first an animal, and that its organs progressed and developed until it became a man? No, indeed! How puerile and unfounded is this idea and this thought! For the proof of the originality of the human species, and of the permanency of the nature of man, is clear and evident. ..." Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 180-184




“…the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God.” Baha’u’llah - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Bowman]

Basically, the Baha'i view is that, human had always existed from eternity with God.

This is unbiblical, brother.

Although His creation is gradual and evolutionary, but a human never was an animal, even if he totally looked different.

This is also unbiblical, brother.

Here I found some quotes for you, (there are more, but 'Some Answered Question' explains it well)

“Know that it is one of the most abstruse spiritual truths that the world of existence—that is to say, this endless universe—has no beginning.

This is against the Holy Bible and also against modern cosmology.

….a creator without a creature is impossible….If we could imagine a time when no beings existed, this imagination would be the denial of the Divinity of God. Moreover, absolute nonexistence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely nonexistent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity (that is, the existence of God) is everlasting and eternal—that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end—it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end.”

Completely at odds with both science and the Holy Bible.

"...man, in the beginning of his existence and in the womb of the earth, like the embryo in the womb of the mother, gradually grew and developed, and passed from one form to another, from one shape to another, until he appeared with this beauty and perfection, this force and this power. It is certain that in the beginning he had not this loveliness and grace and elegance, and that he only by degrees attained this shape, this form, this beauty and this grace. There is no doubt that the human embryo did not at once appear in this form; neither did it then become the manifestation of the words “Blessed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of Makers."
Gradually it passed through various conditions and different shapes, until it attained this form and beauty, this perfection, grace and loveliness. Thus it is evident and confirmed that the development and growth of man on this earth, until he reached his present perfection, resembled the growth and development of the embryo in the womb of the mother: by degrees it passed from condition to condition, from form to form, from one shape to another, for this is according to the requirement of the universal system and Divine Law....
Man was always a distinct species, a man, not an animal. So, if the embryo of man in the womb of the mother passes from one form to another so that the second form in no way resembles the first, is this a proof that the species has changed? that it was at first an animal, and that its organs progressed and developed until it became a man? No, indeed! How puerile and unfounded is this idea and this thought! For the proof of the originality of the human species, and of the permanency of the nature of man, is clear and evident. ..." Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 180-184

Evolution, brother.....come on...

“…the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God.” Baha’u’llah - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Well...I think that we can scratch the Ba'hai faith from the list....

 

[MyJesusis#1]

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Notice, that Jesus is the ONLY Son, where we are adopted children

Ephesians 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is unbiblical, brother.

It is Biblical!
We consider all Scriptures that are revealed at every age as different chapters of the Book of God. So, for people of older ages, the Bible explained things that way, so, they may understand. Now we are 2 grades advanced, so, now it is explained much better!

This is also unbiblical, brother.

It is Biblical. The Bible wasn't interpreted properly. That's why it seems there is a difference. But not if you consider certain bible verses as parabolic or spirtual realities.

This is against the Holy Bible and also against modern cosmology.

Again, it is not against any of them. Even the Science and explaination that Baha'i scriptures give are in agreement. and the Baha'i scriptures give the logical answer.

Completely at odds with both science and the Holy Bible.

Again, that's just your understanding.

Evolution, brother.....come on...

yes, but Not exactly! Please read it again to see the difference.

Well...I think that we can scratch the Ba'hai faith from the list....

If you want, you can do that for yourself brother!

 

[Bismillah]

Hello Investigate Truth I just wanted to alert you of Bowman's nonsensical arguments. He sincerely believes that the Qur'an maintains that Jesus (pbuh) is the "Supreme Lord".

Scriptural debates with him will be a waste of time.

 

[Bowman]

It is Biblical!
We consider all Scriptures that are revealed at every age as different chapters of the Book of God. So, for people of older ages, the Bible explained things that way, so, they may understand. Now we are 2 grades advanced, so, now it is explained much better!






It is Biblical. The Bible wasn't interpreted properly. That's why it seems there is a difference. But not if you consider certain bible verses as parabolic or spirtual realities.





Again, it is not against any of them. Even the Science and explaination that Baha'i scriptures give are in agreement. and the Baha'i scriptures give the logical answer.







Again, that's just your understanding.






yes, but Not exactly! Please read it again to see the difference.





If you want, you can do that for yourself brother!

Your understanding of Biblical scripture is wanting at best.

The Bahai faith is a false faith.

 

[Bowman]

Hello Investigate Truth I just wanted to alert you of Bowman's nonsensical arguments. He sincerely believes that the Qur'an maintains that Jesus (pbuh) is the "Supreme Lord".

Scriptural debates with him will be a waste of time.

Jesus is God according to the authors of the Koran.

Do you want to discuss?