Deadbeat Dads

[Draka]

If she elects to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Why should a man have to pay for something the woman chose?

If a man wasn't married or didn't consent beforehand, I applaud "deadbeat dads" who offer to help with only the abortion costs. If she wants to keep the baby, that's her decision. Freedom requires responsibility.

So, a man has 50% of the responsibility in creating a life but then you lay 100% of the responsibility of ending that life on the woman. How nice of you.

As nature dictates, the pregnancy would beget a baby and he should take responsibility for that. Many woman, no matter how unprepared they may be for a pregnancy as well, could not bring themselves to have an abortion. It is rather crude to basically think that it is as simple her just "choosing" to have a baby once she's already pregnant. For most it's not even a choice...it just is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not even comparable. Pregnancy prevention is available for both sexes. The decision to proceed with pregnancy is only available for one sex.

Your dividing line is arbitrary. A whole chain of things have to happen before a child can be born. The man is responsible for some, the woman is responsible for some, and some are a matter of joint responsibility. It's irrational for you to focus on this one particular link in a chain and ignore the fact that there are many other links.

If a woman - in a decision that belongs solely to her - decides to have an abortion, then a child will not be born. If a man - in a decision that belongs solely to him - decides to have a vasectomy, then a child will not be born (because it won't be conceived in the first place). Just looking at things in terms of responsibility, there's no difference that I can see.

Women can't have their cake and eat it too. Forcing financial and emotional burdens on a man who never willingly agreed to parenthood is just despicable.

Yes, because there are never financial or emotional burdens associated with abortion, right? You have no problem imposing those burdens on a woman, apparently.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

If she elects to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Why should a man have to pay for something the woman chose?

If a man wasn't married or didn't consent beforehand, I applaud "deadbeat dads" who offer to help with only the abortion costs. If she wants to keep the baby, that's her decision. Freedom requires responsibility.

Gene, a man can voluntarily sign away his parental rights, and therefore extradite himself from any and all responsibilities for the child(ren).

Or were you not aware of that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Gene, a man can voluntarily sign away his parental rights, and therefore extradite himself from any and all responsibilities for the child(ren).

Or were you not aware of that?

I think this must vary from place to place. I'm pretty sure it's not the case here. "The best interests of the child" pretty much rules everything - a judge can override basically any agreement between parents if he or she thinks that it will disadvantage the kids.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think this must vary from place to place. I'm pretty sure it's not the case here. "The best interests of the child" pretty much rules everything - a judge can override basically any agreement between parents if he or she thinks that it will disadvantage the kids.

It depends. I had discussed this years ago when the kids were neglected by their father for a few years, and I had brought up the issue of involuntarily signing away parental rights with their biological father. You're correct with the notion that it isn't as simple as dad walking up to a judge with a written statement saying he doesn't want to be a dad, but to go through the process I think would be well worth it if the mother is looking to remarry or to transfer the rights to another person other than the biological father if he chooses not to shoulder the responsibility.

I went through some length court battles where I contacted the state about the lack of support, they brought him to court, he showed up with his own attorney (wonder how he afforded him), and proceeded with counter suits saying that I wasn't abiding by allowing visitations with the kids.....even though he never let me know where he was living at the time.

It was really ugly. I think back then, if my ex had asked not to be a part of the kids' lives, I would have agreed to go through with relinquishing him of his rights and responsibilities. But that didn't happen. He still somehow wanted to be a part of their lives. Hence, the battles in court.

*sigh*

 

[Draka]

I think this must vary from place to place. I'm pretty sure it's not the case here. "The best interests of the child" pretty much rules everything - a judge can override basically any agreement between parents if he or she thinks that it will disadvantage the kids.

Sometimes it very much is in the best interest of the child though, as was in my case. He never paid, never showed up for visits, was abusive, made threats, we were in and out of court several times wasting the court's time. He even tried the "I don't think she's mine" ploy during the last time we were in court in front of the judge. At that point I turned to him, in front of the judge, and said "If that was the case then why did you push for custody at first? Look, I don't even care, you don't want to pay child support, I don't want you around me or our daughter, you sign over parental rights and there's nothing to worry about ever again." At that point the judge piped up and asked him if he'd be willing to do that and my ex said "yes" and the judge was banging his gavel and signing off on it almost immediately. By that afternoon my daughter only had one legal parent.

 

[Mathematician]

Gene, a man can voluntarily sign away his parental rights, and therefore extradite himself from any and all responsibilities for the child(ren).

Or were you not aware of that?

Yes, in some jurisdictions, but child care is still enforced.

I'm not even sure why people complain about "deadbeat fathers" so often. The Census Bureau reports that 15% of mothers are owed to support the children, but according to the Federal Office of Child Support Enforcement, only 5% pay it compared to 85% for fathers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If she elects to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Why should a man have to pay for something the woman chose?

Because he was willing to lie down and make it?:sarcastic
In anything else in life you go through with the actions and you deal with the consequences. Saying a man should be able to have sex without having to accept the responsibilities of parenting is a cop out.

 

[Draka]

Can't believe I missed this.

Irrelevant. Giving birth is also medical procedure.

Only in the case of a c-section. Otherwise childbirth is a natural conclusion to a natural state.

She has three options: abortion, adoption, or retention. The father is, ethically, only responsible for covering half of the least expensive of the options.

How on earth do you figure that? Since when is ethics merely a matter of what is cheapest? I didn't realize that ethics were solely and entirely monetarily driven.

Not even comparable. Pregnancy prevention is available for both sexes. The decision to proceed with pregnancy is only available for one sex.

Women can't have their cake and eat it too. Forcing financial and emotional burdens on a man who never willingly agreed to parenthood is just despicable. Pregnancy is the 'fault' of both partners, always, but the choice to continue is the fault of one.

If men don't want to take the chance of being a parent and taking on those financial and emotional "burdens" then the solution is so much simpler than demanding women undergo abortions...just don't have sex or go have vasectomies. How simple is that. Then all those poor unwilling burdened men being duped by those horrible despicable non-abortion having women won't have anything to worry about.

 

[Rakhel]

we should seriously be more sensitive to the poor guy.
Maybe he slipped, fell in and accidentally ejaculated.
It's not his fault the floor was covered in...in...in...jello?

 

[McBell]

That's part of what set off a red flag for me and made me think that there was more to the story than we weren't hearing.

But just because a father isn't paying child support doesn't necessarily mean that the woman or the child is in "desperate need". It's entirely possible that the mother manages to shoulder the whole burden herself, so while it doesn't necessarily result in the child being deprived, the father is still shirking his responsibility and creating a situation that's unfair for the mother.

If it is so unfair for the mother, why doesn't the mother follow through with her threat?

It seems to me you are not addressing the fact that the mother in this situation is not actually following through with the threat...

One wonders why?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If it is so unfair for the mother, why doesn't the mother follow through with her threat?

It seems to me you are not addressing the fact that the mother in this situation is not actually following through with the threat...

One wonders why?

A few possible reasons come to mind:

- taking someone to court is a lot of bother and expensive. It also usually means paying a substantial retainer to a lawyer. Even if the net result will be a gain, for a lot of people, their cash flow makes doing this difficult.

- when lawyers get involved, things can get bitter. If the parents have joint custody, then pressing the issue of child support could create friction that could negatively impact the child(ren) involved.

- even if you're successful in getting a court order for the guy to pay up, it's no good if the other person doesn't have the money to do it.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not necessarily taking these people at their word. It could be that they're calling it "threatening child support" when the mother of their kid, who can't afford a lawyer, simply reminds him that he should be paying child support.

 

[dawny0826]

Oh, yes, I forgot: It's always the women's fault.

Let me add another eye roll in with yours.

It takes two to tango. And it's not rocket science. If you partake in sex, a child can result.

Providing for that child is par for the course. People need to grow up.

My divorce will be over at the end of this month...thank goodness....and I've had to ask on a monthly basis, for financial support for my daughters and will likely have to continue to ask, even though a precise monthly allotment has been agreed upon between us in our divorce agreement. He won't send it, unless I continue to follow up.

We've tried to handle this as amically as possible with as little government involvement as possible, which places the burden on me to hold him to his promises and legal obligations. Otherwise, I have to take him to court or have our parenting plan rewritten, which could hurt my children in the process.

I seethe over this sort of madnes and refuse to take blame for it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Gotta hand it to a couple of our critics, though. They walked into the lion's den in this thread with mothers who have had experience with deadbeat dads. Legitimate deadbeat dads.

Something tells me our arguments and experiences will be glossed over as either us being one-sided, delusional, and/or impatient with our exes.....or that we're the rare cases of it actually occuring, and that the vast majority of cases the woman was at fault and the guy was the poor victim.

Thought I'd put that out there.

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And I'm rolling my eyes too.

 

[idav]

Gotta hand it to a couple of our critics, though. They walked into the lion's den in this thread with mothers who have had experience with deadbeat dads. Legitimate deadbeat dads.

Something tells me our arguments and experiences will be glossed over as either us being one-sided, delusional, and/or impatient with our exes.....or that we're the rare cases of it actually occuring, and that the vast majority of cases the woman was at fault and the guy was the poor victim.

Thought I'd put that out there.

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.

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And I'm rolling my eyes too.

Lets just keep in mind that there is such a thing as a deadbeat mom. They just don't get all the publicity and likely still get the support.

:run:

 

[McBell]

Lets just keep in mind that there is such a thing as a deadbeat mom. They just don't get all the publicity and likely still get the support.

:run:

Yes...
But what does that have to do with dead beat dads?

 

[Mathematician]

Can't believe I missed this.

Only in the case of a c-section. Otherwise childbirth is a natural conclusion to a natural state.

How on earth do you figure that? Since when is ethics merely a matter of what is cheapest? I didn't realize that ethics were solely and entirely monetarily driven.


If men don't want to take the chance of being a parent and taking on those financial and emotional "burdens" then the solution is so much simpler than demanding women undergo abortions...just don't have sex or go have vasectomies. How simple is that. Then all those poor unwilling burdened men being duped by those horrible despicable non-abortion having women won't have anything to worry about.

We could just turn this sentiment that sex implies an acceptance of potential parenthood around and say that if a woman wanted a faithful father she should have selected who to sleep with better. Saying that a man is responsible for the decision another makes is just unethical. Worse still are the implications in this thread that he should just shut up and "man up."

The fact of the matter is women are expecting all the freedoms retained from reproductive rights but none of the responsibility.

Divorce is a separate matter. All of the anecdotes offered thus far have been about marriage or situations where a child was consented to and then abandoned. Those are separate issues.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

We could just turn this sentiment that sex implies an acceptance of potential parenthood around and say that if a woman wanted a faithful father she should have selected who to sleep with better. Saying that a man is responsible for the decision another makes is just unethical. Worse still are the implications in this thread that he should just shut up and "man up."

The fact of the matter is women are expecting all the freedoms retained from reproductive rights but none of the responsibility.

Divorce is a separate matter. All of the anecdotes offered thus far have been about marriage or situations where a child was consented to and then abandoned. Those are separate issues.

In your opinion, then, if a man chooses not to be a father to a child, does he have the right to impose a court ordered abortion on the mother?

Turn it around on the man who wants to be a father, but the mother doesn't, should he enforce a measure that keeps her pregnant?

You have a tendency to speak of men's rights quite a bit, Gene, but I fail to understand where you draw the line of legality and ethics on the personhood of the woman as well as of the man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We could just turn this sentiment that sex implies an acceptance of potential parenthood around and say that if a woman wanted a faithful father she should have selected who to sleep with better. Saying that a man is responsible for the decision another makes is just unethical. Worse still are the implications in this thread that he should just shut up and "man up."

No, the responsibility should not fall on one parent, it should fall on both. Anything else in life, you go through with the actions and you are expected to deal with the consequences. And again, there are hardly ever any signs that you can look for to know if you are picking a dead beat for a partner or not.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, the responsibility should not fall on one parent, it should fall on both. Anything else in life, you go through with the actions and you are expected to deal with the consequences. And again, there are hardly ever any signs that you can look for to know if you are picking a dead beat for a partner or not.

I as a woman take on the freedom to have consensual sex with my partner and assume responsibility for the consequences.

I expect the same out of my partner. Male or female. We're in this together, right? :yes: