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Death-bed Conversions

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rhyshanan

Member
Death-bed conversions of atheists are well known (to theist at least). I beileve Charles Darwin was the victim of such a nonsensical rumor.

This might be an odd position to take but I think death-bed conversion of an atheist is actually heroic on the part of the atheitst.

Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him. This is prehaps the greatest feat of selflessness, even at deaths door you are making plans for the future wellbeing of your loved ones ... in so doing sacrificing your own prided belief and reputation.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Sacrificing things that aren't worth all that much to begin with? Not much of a sacrifice.

Besides, how do you know that most death-bed conversions are, in fact, to ease the pain of loved ones? I'm sure some of them were, but for the most part, we can't be sure.
 
joea

joea

Oshoyoi
rhyshanan said:
Death-bed conversions of atheists are well known (to theist at least). I beileve Charles Darwin was the victim of such a nonsensical rumor.

This might be an odd position to take but I think death-bed conversion of an atheist is actually heroic on the part of the atheitst.

Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him. This is prehaps the greatest feat of selflessness, even at deaths door you are making plans for the future wellbeing of your loved ones ... in so doing sacrificing your own prided belief and reputation.
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It works both ways. By not confessing you are stopping their clinging of attachment to you - it helps you on your journey.
 
R

rhyshanan

Member
joea said:
It works both ways. By not confessing you are stopping their clinging of attachment to you - it helps you on your journey.
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Honestly, I don't see how 'not confessing' would stop their attachment to you.
On the other hand, reassuring them that you will be fine and they can get on with their lives, would help them.

I don't believe deathbed conversions are especially helpful in the world, but it's helpful for the person(s) affected
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
rhyshanan said:
Think about it, the atheist is infact NOT considering himself by confessing, he/she does it to ease the pain felt by family/friend believers around him.
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You're assuming the conversion is not sincere. Granted, it may not be, but unless you are in a position to be able to read people's minds, you probably shouldn't assume anything. At any rate, a declaration of belief in Christ hours prior to death is not sufficient to save anyone.
 
MaybeSpartacus

MaybeSpartacus

Member
rhyshanan said:
Obviosuly not a real conversion :facepalm:, but empty mutterings? It's a selfless act to make dying less painful for friends/family.
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I don't see how that would ease the suffering much, really, unless you had family who are hardcore "don't get in unless you believe in Jesus", and even then as Katzpur said, they wouldn't believe it enough to get in anyway.
 
R

rhyshanan

Member
Katzpur said:
You're assuming the conversion is not sincere. Granted, it may not be, but unless you are in a position to be able to read people's minds, you probably shouldn't assume anything. At any rate, a declaration of belief in Christ hours prior to death is not sufficient to save anyone.
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Yes, I am assuming the conversion is not sincere.
It would only be a selfless act if it wasn't sincere, because if it was sincere
It would be someone cowardly deperate to save themself by abandoning reason,
that's not what i'm discussing.
 
R

rhyshanan

Member
MaybeSpartacus said:
I don't see how that would ease the suffering much, really, unless you had family who are hardcore "don't get in unless you believe in Jesus", and even then as Katzpur said, they wouldn't believe it enough to get in anyway.
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I'm sure belief in life after death is a powerful comforter, the closer death comes the more comfort it brings, so i dont think this situation is reserverd for only the 'hardcore' believers ...
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
rhyshanan said:
Yes, I am assuming the conversion is not sincere.
It would only be a selfless act if it wasn't sincere, because if it was sincere
It would be someone cowardly deperate to save themself by abandoning reason,
that's not what i'm discussing.
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You really like to make assumptions, don't you? Now you're assuming that anyone who believes in a Higher Power has abandoned reason. Oh well, to each his own. :rolleyes:
 
MaybeSpartacus

MaybeSpartacus

Member
rhyshanan said:
I'm sure belief in life after death is a powerful comforter, the closer death comes the more comfort it brings, so i dont think this situation is reserverd for only the 'hardcore' believers ...
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Allow me to clarify. You get two 'types' of believers. We'll say "conservative" and "liberal". "Conservative" believers believe that only their religion is right, those who believe get in and those who don't, don't. Deathbed conversions are not enough. In their minds your conversion doesn't save you. It offers them no comfort. "Liberal" believers tend to be more open and consider those that don't believe do have a chance so long as they lived their lives well and were good. Their God is after all understanding and forgiving. You converting doesn't really matter. If you were a good person they will be inclined to believe God understood how you came to your thoughts and forgave you. You have a chance. That's what I was getting at.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
MaybeSpartacus said:
Allow me to clarify. You get two 'types' of believers. We'll say "conservative" and "liberal". "Conservative" believers believe that only their religion is right, those who believe get in and those who don't, don't. Deathbed conversions are not enough. In their minds your conversion doesn't save you. It offers them no comfort. "Liberal" believers tend to be more open and consider those that don't believe do have a chance so long as they lived their lives well and were good. Their God is after all understanding and forgiving. You converting doesn't really matter. If you were a good person they will be inclined to believe God understood how you came to your thoughts and forgave you. You have a chance. That's what I was getting at.
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Okay, so I don't believe in deathbed repentence so I guess that makes me a conservative. I do believe pretty much everything you said about liberals. So what does that make me? (Besides a Mormon, I mean.;) )
 
BruceDLimber

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
A very relevant passage from the Baha'i scriptures:

"How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire. Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness."
--The Book of Certitude, pp. 194-5

Peace,

Bruce
 
R

rhyshanan

Member
MaybeSpartacus said:
Allow me to clarify. You get two 'types' of believers. We'll say "conservative" and "liberal". "Conservative" believers believe that only their religion is right, those who believe get in and those who don't, don't. Deathbed conversions are not enough. In their minds your conversion doesn't save you. It offers them no comfort. "Liberal" believers tend to be more open and consider those that don't believe do have a chance so long as they lived their lives well and were good. Their God is after all understanding and forgiving. You converting doesn't really matter. If you were a good person they will be inclined to believe God understood how you came to your thoughts and forgave you. You have a chance. That's what I was getting at.
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I think i see what you mean, so you're saying confessing to conservatives offer no comfort to them because they believe thier god won't accept you? hence confessing to them (for their sake) is pointless? If this is your point then ... that makes sence!

I guess my opening statement refered to a somewhat specific situation.
 
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