Death for Apostacy in Islam discussion

[TagliatelliMonster]

Chinese communists... ahem...

They got executed for leaving the chinese dogmatic doctrines of state imposed communism.

Essentially the chinese were doing to those who left those doctrines what Mym says would have to happen to muslim apostates according to her interpretation of islam.

 

[Birdnest]

So the "Nuremberg Defence".
The Final Solution was a command from the supreme ruler. No amount of analyzing would take the proof for it away from ideological sources.
"But we were only obeying orders"

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was responding to someone who appeared to be saying the following of religious rulings has nothing to do with faith.

 

[Birdnest]

Unfortunately, sister @MyM is a hardline, conservative literalist.

There's a shorter word for that — a Muslim.

 

[Birdnest]

Please. This is just a pathetic ploy to avoid your responsibility in the statements you make.

You worship this Allah whom you believe ordains these horrible things. You have made it perfectly clear already that you agree with and support the things he ordains.

That puts you in a position of having to defend such practices when challenged on terms of morality and alike.



To give an analogous example that we hopefully can both agree on, to illustrate this point....
Consider a nazi soldier on trial who has fully taken in the nazi ideals from Hitler and Goebbels. Those 2 commanded the soldiers to hunt down and kill jews just for the reason of being jews.
The nazi soldier fully backs his nazi hero's and doesn't question these commandments and instead agrees blindly with them.

Now the soldier is on trial for his deeds. And his defense consists of "hey, don't look at me, it's all Hitler and Goebels..."

Do you feel like this guy should get to avoid his moral responsibility like that?

I certainly don't.
So why should the moral responsibility for supporting executing apostates be any different?

That's silly. We'll be questioned by God and the believers strive to prepare for that so they will have no regrets.

 

[Birdnest]

Not if you've been executed.

You were given so many chances, if you were it was practically suicide.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's silly.

What is silly and how?

We'll be questioned by God and the believers strive to prepare for that so they will have no regrets.

That is of no interest to the point at hand.

@MyM is asked about the morality behind what she believes should happen to apostates according to islam. She supports this religion since she follows it.
But when asked about the morality that underpins this rule, she runs from it.

When you support a certain rule, especially when it concerns reasons to kill people, should one then not have a responsibility to explain why such a rule is a good thing?
Especially when it concerns physical harm, death of all things, is it then not even our duty to challenge such and question the moral underpinnings of such???

Why am I spoken to like I am the bad guy for doing so?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You were given so many chances, if you were it was practically suicide.

For crying out loud.............................

The level of moral bankruptcy that is being exhibited here is deeply disturbing.

 

[Birdnest]

Muslims should have the right to leave the faith without any fear of retribution

An eternity in hell is what they should really worry about. What is the point of life if that's the faith you've chosen?

You have mentioned that you're an ex-Christian. If all religions followed the same logic you're using in your arguments here, you could have been put to death for leaving Christianity and openly supporting Islam.

The religion of the christians is weak. Doesn't mean we should imitate them and be weak as well. All praise be to Allah. Our religion is strong while the Christians take note of about 0.2 percent of what their book has to say. That is evidence enough on who is following the truth.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

An eternity in hell is what they should really worry about.

//facepalm

If you go from muslim to atheism, you'll be about as worried about islamic hell as you are right now about not ending up in whalhalla or not getting presents from santa coming christmass.

A non-believer considers hell imaginary. There's no reason to be concerned about imaginary things.

The religion of the christians is weak. Doesn't mean we should imitate them and be weak as well. All praise be to Allah. Our religion is strong while the Christians take note of about 0.2 percent of what their book has to say. That is evidence enough on who is following the truth.

Gratz. You completely dodged / ignored the point being made and instead just went on this little superiority complex trip.

 

[Birdnest]

When you support a certain rule, especially when it concerns reasons to kill people, should one then not have a responsibility to explain why such a rule is a good thing?
Especially when it concerns physical harm, death of all things, is it then not even our duty to challenge such and question the moral underpinnings of such???

No, no one is responsible of giving you an explanation of anything. Allah knows best the wisdom behind His laws. Of course we can analyze their benefits, but we should not obey simply out of reason, but out of faith.

 

[KWED]

I have seen these specific polls numerous times before. I'm unsure of their reliability or reflection of reality, however, especially considering that the internet has brought to light the presence of a considerable amount of secular Arab and Muslim voices that weren't as visible in prior decades.

Most Muslim-majority countries are currently grappling with a lot of outdated and harmful religious heritage (e.g., certain scholars' interpretations of the Qur'an) penned by scholars from previous eras, to be sure, as well as the extremism and hateful thinking that said heritage sometimes fosters and inspires. But whether this means the majority of Muslims believe in something as drastic as the death penalty for deconversion is a different story. It's a much more complicated and uncertain question.

What I often find is a kind of contradictory disconnect. A claim to hold modern, liberal(ish) values while at the same time claiming to believe and accept everything in the Quran and sunnah.

 

[KWED]

Why would anyone care what the UN thinks of it? We know how they're trying to corrupt Muslims as fast as they can. They especially love to lead the young ones astray.

Of course they are. They are also involved in Clinton's Paedo-Pizza ring and help The Jews™ control world finance.

 

[KWED]

In Islam, there are rules that are set in by the government.

The Holocaust was also "rules set by government, applied by government agents.
Did you have a point?

 

[KWED]

But in Islam, you are NOT coerced into it accepting it.

The Prophet said said "I have been commanded to fight the people until they submit to Islam, then their lives and property will be spared" - Sahih Bukhari & Muslim

Ibn Kathir's tafsir of sura 9:5 explains that the verse means the polytheists "have no choice but to accept islam or die".

And of course, there is the constant "Worship me or I will torture you forever!" from Allah.

But no coercion. Obviously not.

 

[KWED]

You have mentioned that you're an ex-Christian. If all religions followed the same logic you're using in your arguments here, you could have been put to death for leaving Christianity and openly supporting Islam.

I don't think it should be hard for you to see why many people--including many Muslims--view executing someone for deconversion as morally indefensible and as a form of murder.

This is one of the greatest ironies. Muslims claim the persecution Muhammad and the early Muslims faced at the hands of the Meccans was justification for military action against them and eventually invading and taking their lands. But they were only persecuted (and in reality it wasn't that serious) because they continually blasphemed against the established religions, publicly mocked their gods, insulted their idols.
And yet Islam claims that the same behaviour should be punished by death.

 

[KWED]

Chinese communists... ahem...

There are many similarities between organised religion and totalitarian political ideologies.

 

[KWED]

The charts show support for something called 'Sharia' but don't mention the death penalty.

The top chart is labelled "Death Penalty for Leaving Islam".

 

[KWED]

There's a shorter word for that — a Muslim.

Not really. Many Muslims reject the conservative literalist approach.
I agree that it shouldn't be called "extremism" though. It is just "Traditional Islam", as practiced by Muhammad. Some Muslims think their country should be run like 7th century Arabia, others believe it should be run like a 21st century liberal democracy.

 

[KWED]

You were given so many chances, if you were it was practically suicide.

If there was a right-wing takeover in your country and Muslims were told to publicly denounce Allah and renounce Islam or die, what would you do?

 

[KWED]

An eternity in hell is what they should really worry about. What is the point of life if that's the faith you've chosen?

Why would hell worry someone who does not believe hell exists?
Are you worried about going to Christian hell for rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour?

The religion of the christians is weak. Doesn't mean we should imitate them and be weak as well. All praise be to Allah. Our religion is strong while the Christians take note of about 0.2 percent of what their book has to say. That is evidence enough on who is following the truth.

I always smile at the lack of self-awareness when religionists talk about the flaws in other religions.