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Death for Apostacy in Islam discussion

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
:confused:
The top chart is labelled "Death Penalty for Leaving Islam".
Yeah, but the legend in the chart says it is actually just saying how many Muslims are in favor of making Sharia the law of the land, so what I have to ask is does that really mean they are in favor of the death penalty. I have to ask, because its a serious thing to infer that 60% of a country wants every apostate to be executed. If Sharia has multiple interpretations, then perhaps the chart is not representing well the actual number percentage. Now maybe that sounds like an unecessary step, but its just an inquiry as to whether Sharia always implies killing apostates. Its a fair question, not an antagonistic question.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, no one is responsible of giving you an explanation of anything. Allah knows best the wisdom behind His laws. Of course we can analyze their benefits, but we should not obey simply out of reason, but out of faith.
Yet again, the Nuremberg Defence.
"I don't have to worry about why I'm gassing these people. I'm only obeying orders. Hitler knows best the wisdom behind his laws".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yeah, but the legend in the chart says it is actually just saying how many Muslims are in favor of making Sharia the law of the land, so what I have to ask is does that really mean they are in favor of the death penalty. I have to ask, because its a serious thing to infer that 60% of a country wants every apostate to be executed. If Sharia has multiple interpretations, then perhaps the chart is not representing well the actual number percentage. Now maybe that sounds like an unecessary step, but its just an inquiry as to whether Sharia always implies killing apostates. Its a fair question, not an antagonistic question.
No, it just says that the apostasy numbers are from those people who favour making Sharia the law of the land, not the total population.
So, for example, 70% of Egyptians favour sharia as law. So if a population of 100 million, 70 million favour sharia. Of that number, 70% support death for apostasy, so 49 million of the 100 million support death for apostasy.
Thought it was pretty clear TBH.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the legend in the chart says it is actually just saying how many Muslims are in favor of making Sharia the law of the land, so what I have to ask is does that really mean they are in favor of the death penalty. I have to ask, because its a serious thing to infer that 60% of a country wants every apostate to be executed. If Sharia has multiple interpretations, then perhaps the chart is not representing well the actual number percentage. Now maybe that sounds like an unecessary step, but its just an inquiry as to whether Sharia always implies killing apostates. Its a fair question, not an antagonistic question.


Again, because you don't understand something doesn't mean that what you say is truth.

I have explained. The rules are from Allah. We don't make them and because you don't understand that Allah is the Creator of the universe, of you and me and every living thing, doesn't mean that what He is saying is false. It's been like this since the beginning of religion.

Apostasy is a big thing. The problem was when such a decision became a public act with political implications, the place for death is appropriate...if it harms the Muslim community and damages politically etc., it is taken into account the death sentence.

The Jews hold firm to this as well as Muslims. Many Christians don't know and practice from within their own book since they have Jesus to have died for them, they are free of guilt on anything.

Many people who do not practice a religion, have the morals that they say people should adhere to. We have rules in our books that we follow.

Islam doesn't take killing on a whim.

“Verily, Allah enjoins Al-Adl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but Allah Alone - Islamic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsan (i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allah, totally for Allah's sake and in accordance with the Sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet SAW in a perfect manner), and giving (help) to kith and kin (i.e. all that Allah has ordered you to give them e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help, etc.): and forbids Al-Fahsha (i.e all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right, etc.), and Al-Munkar (i.e all that is prohibited by Islamic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds, etc.), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression), He admonishes you, that you may take heed”.
an-Nahl 16:90

In Islam, if you kill a person it is as if you kill all of mankind and if you save a life, it's as if you save all of mankind.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
An eternity in hell is what they should really worry about. What is the point of life if that's the faith you've chosen?

The religion of the christians is weak. Doesn't mean we should imitate them and be weak as well. All praise be to Allah. Our religion is strong while the Christians take note of about 0.2 percent of what their book has to say. That is evidence enough on who is following the truth.
You are nobody to decide what a human life is worth. Your beliefs make it clear at least that you believe a false God. Pity.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Apostasy is a big thing. The problem was when such a decision became a public act with political implications, the place for death is appropriate...if it harms the Muslim community and damages politically etc., it is taken into account the death sentence.

Sis. Could you show me one ayath in the Quran that supports killing apostates in any shape or form? Let me see.

Thanks.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Sis. Could you show me one ayath in the Quran that supports killing apostates in any shape or form? Let me see.

Thanks.
Worth bearing in mind that not all Muslims are Quranists. Most consider hadith as an important and authoritative secondary source.
 

Birdnest

Member
and help The Jews™ control world finance.
Highly likely, but they wouldn't know.
If there was a right-wing takeover in your country and Muslims were told to publicly denounce Allah and renounce Islam or die, what would you do?
Move.
Not really. Many Muslims reject the conservative literalist approach.
I agree that it shouldn't be called "extremism" though. It is just "Traditional Islam", as practiced by Muhammad. Some Muslims think their country should be run like 7th century Arabia, others believe it should be run like a 21st century liberal democracy.
Their Islam is questionable since they reject even basic Islamic elements. Rejecting, for example, parts of the Quran or some authentic hadiths is an act of disbelief. A very serious problem.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No, no one is responsible of giving you an explanation of anything. Allah knows best the wisdom behind His laws. Of course we can analyze their benefits, but we should not obey simply out of reason, but out of faith.

And then you wonder why I call this sort of behavior morally bankrupt.
 

Birdnest

Member
Worth bearing in mind that not all Muslims are Quranists. Most consider hadith as an important and authoritative secondary source.
Admitting that will immediately put you on different planets in a debate. First you have to pretend you're both on the same premise.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Highly likely, but they wouldn't know.
I would like to think this was a joke, but I suspect otherwise.

You can't. You have been rounded up and brought to the re-eduction centre.
What do you do?

Their Islam is questionable since they reject even basic Islamic elements. Rejecting, for example, parts of the Quran or some authentic hadiths is an act of disbelief. A very serious problem.
So you think that any Muslim who does not take a conservative, literalist approach to Islam is not a "True Muslim".
Basically, if they disagree with death for apostates, stoning adulterers, etc, they are munafiqun.
I guess that was the expected response from a conservative literalist.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Sis. Could you show me one ayath in the Quran that supports killing apostates in any shape or form? Let me see.

Thanks.


4_59.png


O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Then, if you quarrel about something, revert it back to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is good, and the best at the end. 4:59


قُلۡ اِنۡ كُنۡتُمۡ تُحِبُّوۡنَ اللّٰهَ فَاتَّبِعُوۡنِىۡ يُحۡبِبۡكُمُ اللّٰهُ وَيَغۡفِرۡ لَـكُمۡ ذُنُوۡبَكُمۡؕ وَاللّٰهُ غَفُوۡرٌ رَّحِيۡمٌ‏
(3:31) (O Messenger!) Tell people: 'If you indeed love Allah, follow me, and Allah will love you and will forgive you your sins. Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.'

قُلۡ اَطِيۡعُوا اللّٰهَ وَالرَّسُوۡلَ ۚ فَاِنۡ تَوَلَّوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الۡكٰفِرِيۡنَ‏
(3:32) Say: 'Obey Allah and obey the Messenger.' If they turn away from this then know that Allah does not love those who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.28

In Islam, you must take both the Quran and the Sunnah. Just like prayer, Allah says to pray but it is not in the Quran, Mohammad pbuh taught us.

Mohammad pbuh DID NOT say anything from himself when it came to the revelation of Allah. He is not a liar. This every Muslim knows.

Lying is one of the characteristics of the hypocrites, and it is a blameworthy trait which encourages one to commit evil and prevents one from doing good. Al-Bukhaari (6094) and Muslim (2607) narrated that Ibn Mas‘ood (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: “I enjoin you to be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man may continue to tell the truth and endeavor to be truthful until he is recorded with Allah as a speaker of truth. And beware of lying, for lying leads to wickedness and wickedness leads to Hell. A man may continue to tell lies and endeavor to tell lies, until he is recorded with Allah as a liar.”

One does not just kill an apostate. There are rules and regulations. Committees and judges etc.

And Allah knows best
 

Birdnest

Member
You can't. You have been rounded up and brought to the re-eduction centre.
What do you do?
Taqyyah.
So you think that any Muslim who does not take a conservative, literalist approach to Islam is not a "True Muslim".
No. I said their Islam is questionable. I'm sure you know what questionable means.
Basically, if they disagree with death for apostates, stoning adulterers, etc, they are munafiqun.
Not necessarily.
I simply don't have time to explain simple things to you many times.
But you can't seem to explain why.
I could try to explain the probable reasons you hold such erroneous beliefs, but most people hate hearing that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everything in Islam in terms of laws whether ritual or otherwise has a clear wisdom and bright insights to support it in Quran and Sunnah. But people mix falsehood with truth and attribute horrible laws to God and his Messenger and so they don't know that. At the end, it clothes it as sincerity to God and his Messenger, but really per God and his Messenger is a form of veiled or what is called hidden polytheism. That is the intention is because they value humans over God and his Messenger and prefer their idols be unchallenged rather than have to sacrifice in the way of God in that regard and struggle to manifest the truth.

They rather have many people be on truth despite the evidence very few follow it than support the truth.

Imam Ali (a) says "for he has not commanded you in things you don't know are good and has not forbidden you things which in you don't see their bad (consequences)".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
So unlike those martyrs from other faiths and causes, you will lie to get yourself out of trouble. How noble!

No. I said their Islam is questionable. I'm sure you know what questionable means.
Yes, "Doubtful as regards truth or validity." (OED).
You also said "they reject even basic Islamic elements...parts of the Quran". As you surely know, anyone who rejects even a single word of the Quran has committed an act of kufr.

Not necessarily.
Explain.

I simply don't have time to explain simple things to you many times.
Perhaps you need to express yourself better.
I said that not all Muslims are Quranists, some consider hadith as a valid secondary source (in response to a Quranist pointing out that the issue of killing apostates isn't in the Quran). ie. explaining that their position on the issue does not apply to most Muslims.
You replied...
"Admitting that will immediately put you on different planets in a debate. First you have to pretend you're both on the same premise."
What does that mean in the context of what I said? Are you referring to me and the Quranist, or the Quranist and Muslims who accept the sunnah?
And obviously we/you will be holding very different positions, by definition.
And why would a Quranist and a Sunni or atheist "pretend they are both on the same premise"? (Not even sure what that means)

I could try to explain the probable reasons you hold such erroneous beliefs, but most people hate hearing that.
Mind that irony, it burns!
 

Birdnest

Member
So unlike those martyrs from other faiths and causes, you will lie to get yourself out of trouble. How noble!
Some muslims have died in a similar situation, but Islam doesn't ask us to and I see no reason for anyone to do that. We want to preserve our lives and we should so that so we can do more acts of worship. You sound awfully insincere.
You also said "they reject even basic Islamic elements...parts of the Quran"
That's a misquotation.
I don't need to. You can look up the terms again and figure it out yourself. I'm not doing your work for you.
 
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