Regardless of when and by whom, the fact remains that proven criminals who are determined to be worthy of punishment will be justly repaid.
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Death penalty: Are you for or against it?
- Thread starter Saint Frankenstein
- Start date
Regardless of when and by whom, the fact remains that proven criminals who are determined to be worthy of punishment will be justly repaid.
... whether or not any human being makes it happen. The only exceptions are those who are unjustly punished by human beings.
In the Christian context, the death penalty is ONLY a matter of unjustly executing the innocent. If we assume Christian beliefs are true, that's the only difference between the two options. If you don't execute anyone, God will still see to it that every deserving person is punished, so the only people who have a different outcome are those who wouldn't be punished by God.
If you can point out the flaw in my reasoning, I'd like to hear it.
Can you provide an instance of this?
Which is why the puzzling question remains.
If people believe in divine justice, why are they so inclined to pull the trigger themselves?
Why are Christians so hot to kill? Even when their top spiritual leaders are firmly, publicly, and unambiguously opposed to the notion?
Tom
Many of us also believe in pursuing natural justice. Those who choose not to repent for what they have done wrong, for the same, there will be no mercy.
An instance of someone who has been put to death who the Christian god would have spared? Why?
Don't dress up your bloodlust as justice.
It's not about bloodlust, it's about paying your dues and being real. Some criminals just don't care about the fact that they broke the law, especially in heinous ways.
What is natural about vengeance?
You can find homosexual behavior in animals, but you cannot find vengeance. "An eye for an eye", is a purely human invention.
How can you say what someone will do in the future? Christian execution is designed to prevent repentance by sending people you hate off to their eternal reward before God has deemed appropriate.
Tom
That is because there is no such things as the legal system and the concepts of justice and mercy among non-human species. To suggest such a thing is ridiculous, don't you think, columbus?
Where in the world did you get something like that? First and foremost, ‘Christian' execution does not exist. I didn't know that execution had a particular religion. Second, although in the OT, some sins were indeed considered worthy of execution, with the coming of Christ Jesus, His death and glorious resurrection, God offered the way out of not only the physical death but also the spiritual death of Hell. Also, in the natural judiciary system, why do you think there is a lengthy period of time between initial sentencing and final sentencing or execution? I can think of two. Just in case new evidence is found which serves to exonerate the convicted, in which case, the accused is deemed innocent. Or, in the case of not, the convicted is able to come to terms with what he or she has done and maybe, just maybe, experience remorse. Even then, when the sentence is final.
I'd like to try to understand what you're saying...
You are the one who referred to "natural" justice. I see nothing like justice in the non human world. Why don't you explain what you mean so we can discuss
"Also, in the natural judiciary system, why do you think there is a lengthy period of time between initial sentencing and final sentencing or execution? "
Because as far as I can tell only the USA generally spends so much time.
Tom
Back in the really old days, justice was a function of escalation.
If Joe punched Bob, Bob cut Joe. Since Bob cut Joe, Joe burned Bob's house. So Bob put out Joe's eye. So Joe killed one of bobs kids. So Bob killed joes family. So .....
Moses improved morality with "an eye for an eye, then it's over". This was more sophisticated than the old way.
Then Jesus Christ came along with "turn the other cheek". Yet another improvement to "human justice". It is about trying to end the cycle of violence, not just contain it.
I see Jesus' Message on this subject as quite important. I'm surprised when Christians don't.
Tom
I think I explained myself clearly enough. I'm not sure that it would make things clearer to pretend that I know the mind of the Christian god to the point where I could tell you what he would have in mind for any particular person.
Short version:
- do you think humanity's judgement is imperfect?
- do you think that God's judgement is perfect?
If your answer is "yes" to both of those questions, then the implication is that having humans carry out justice instead of God will not make the outcome better and can only make it worse.
Jesus did not invent the idea of setting aside vengeance and settling disputes according to law.
I know that. But I am not a theist.
It's the people who believe Jesus Christ is God, but don't think He got this one right that confuse me.
Tom
Jesus is also recorded as having said to the woman who committed adultery, who deserved to be stoned, “go and sin no more".
Not exactly, especially considering the question from whom each set of laws originates. Concerning divine laws (those laws given in the Holy Scriptures by God), they have a divine source. Resultingly, God (or at least His Son, Christ Jesus) is the judge. Human laws are created by human beings, and as such require human beings to administer judgment as fits.
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In other words, He told the crowd "Forget human justice" and then told her to repent.
He actively opposed your form of justice.
Tom