Debate a Muslim

[SA Huguenot]

No. It's alright, I think, in most places, inclding many European countries.

In Europe the poultry abbattoirs (who slaughters anywhere from 100 to 500 chickens per minute) uses a recordint to recite the prayer as the chicken passes a circular blade to sever the veigns in their necks.
in other countries, the slaughterer must be a MALE and must recite vor every bird that passes.
Perhaps a muslim can answer why a women is not allowed to be a slaughterer.

 

[Shakeel]

No see. I l


Obviously. You have absolutely no clue.

She doesn't know Arabic? What a surprise! That discussion must be difficult for you then with your limited English writing ability. She might just Google it and realise that you said nothing at all, but no worries, by that time you've "forgotten" what it was all about.

 

[SA Huguenot]

My understanding is that it depends on the Muslim whether the hadith are authentic, is this so?

Does the Qur’an indicate the houri are for sex, or just that they exist like Christian angels or something?

On the authentication of the hadith.
No, a Muslim can not decide which Hadithe is authentic or not.
That is done by Islamic scholars, and has been done for 1400 years or so.
What they do is to determine the sources and chain of the tradition.
in other words, the people who told the person who told the next person, is the key to establish if the tradition is authentic.
For instance, it it came from Aby Bakr, through his daughter, then it is strong.


Yes, the Quran mentions the Horis, how they look ect, but it does not say how many a Muslim man gets, in the Hadith it can be any ammount from 12, 72 to 700.
The quran and Hadith does not say id a woman goes to paradise.

 

[firedragon]

My understanding is that it depends on the Muslim whether the hadith are authentic, is this so?

Does the Qur’an indicate the houri are for sex, or just that they exist like Christian angels or something?

There is no indication in the Quran about Houris being for sex. The houri phenomena has been repeated so much in western media in relation to terrorists who are waiting to die and go to heaven to have sex with multiple Houris that its very difficult to even begin an analysis with someone.

I told you the word is genderless. So when you think of sex, what sex are you speaking of? Think about it?

 

[Meow Mix]

On the authentication of the hadith.
No, a Muslim can not decide which Hadithe is authentic or not.
That is done by Islamic scholars, and has been done for 1400 years or so.
What they do is to determine the sources and chain of the tradition.
in other words, the people who told the person who told the next person, is the key to establish if the tradition is authentic.
For instance, it it came from Aby Bakr, through his daughter, then it is strong.


Yes, the Quran mentions the Horis, how they look ect, but it does not say how many a Muslim man gets, in the Hadith it can be any ammount from 12, 72 to 700.
The quran and Hadith does not say id a woman goes to paradise.

The one hadith posted earlier at least insinuates it if “many” women are in Hell; that is at least not “all.” I guess. Really I’m poking my nose where I know next to nothing though, just a logical observation.

What does the Quran say about houri, rather than any hadith?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Did a quick google and found this;

'There is some misunderstanding around halal slaughter in Australia. Firstly, Islamic leaders in Australia largely accept the practice of pre-slaughter stunning, which means from an animal welfare perspective, Halal slaughter need not be any different (nor 'crueller') than non-halal slaughter. In fact, when it comes to the way animals are stunned — the same method (referred to as 'reversible stunning') is used for many animals killed for their meat in Australia. We are advised that all of Australia's export abattoirs practice pre-slaughter stunning — and they are all 'halal-certified'.

It is illegal for abattoirs in Australia to slaughter animals without stunning. However, a small number of facilities have been given an exemption in order to practice un-stunned ritual slaughter. This is not only for a small local halal market but also to meet Jewish or 'kosher' slaughter requirements. Animals Australia has been campaigning to close the legal loophole that is allowing non-stun slaughter — both halal and kosher — to occur in several small abattoirs in Australia. We continue to lobby politicians, have held rallies and have provided an online platform for people to make their voices heard on this important issue. Thousands of Australians have already joined our calls to outlaw this cruel practice, and we will continue to campaign against non-stun slaughter until it is outlawed.'

Source: Halal slaughter in Australia

So it looks to me like most of the halal slaughter houses in Australia are no different in levels of cruelty than their Muslim counterparts.

My problem with Halaal slaughtering is that not only is it a way for Muslims to force companies to employ according to religion, but they force companies to sell products identified by religion.
In South Africa they are less than 2% of the population, but demand 100% halaal slaughter.

Therefore, they are litterally forcing their religion down our throats.

 

[firedragon]

No, a Muslim can not decide which Hadithe is authentic or not.

When you dont know the subject, dont make lies up mate. Lol. Tell me since you are such a scholar, what are the ahadith authentication methodologies practiced by Muslims?

How about Imam Malik? Is not he the oldest or earliest hadith collector? Please elaborate on him?

In the meantime, here is another cut and paste to suit your style of analysis.

Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 ) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)



1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 )

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 )

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 )

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 )

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn’t give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans “property”.

 

[Meow Mix]

There is no indication in the Quran about Houris being for sex. The houri phenomena has been repeated so much in western media in relation to terrorists who are waiting to die and go to heaven to have sex with multiple Houris that its very difficult to even begin an analysis with someone.

I told you the word is genderless. So when you think of sex, what sex are you speaking of? Think about it?

Oh I’m under no illusions that I’ve had anything accurate filtered through western media. Just asking questions. Are houri like Christian angels then? Otherworldly beings that just happen to reside in Paradise?

 

[Polymath257]

Whats wrong with you is not a very good argument. Its just displaying your inability to accept some humility. Maybe you think you are a superior being of some sort.

Mate. You were talking about men having more accidents in comparison to women having biological differences to men. Maybe you forgot that for a little bit.

Whats the comparison between women getting pregnant and other biological differences between men and women? That was the question.

Why is any of that relevant? Seriously. So what if women can get pregnant and give birth. How is that relevant to the issue on the table?

 

[firedragon]

What does the Quran say about houri, rather than any hadith?

The word hoor means intelligent, pure, dazzling friend; male or female. Words derived from the same root are used to mean back and forth conversation (hiwar, muhawara) (18:34,37; 58:1), disciple or true friend (hawary) (3:52; 5:111-112; 61:14), and to return (84:14). See 52:20; 55:72; 56:22. A word like hourahoo would mean he returned an answer. An answer for an answer. A discussion.

 

[Polymath257]

Well. There are many instances when a woman is unable to go somewhere, and the other woman can replace her for the purpose of providing witness for a financial dispute. Thats why.

And the same cannot be said of men?

What relevant factor explains the difference?

 

[firedragon]

Oh I’m under no illusions that I’ve had anything accurate filtered through western media. Just asking questions. Are houri like Christian angels then? Otherworldly beings that just happen to reside in Paradise?

No. Not like Christian angels. If you take cherubs in the Bible, God rides them. I mean like a vehicle. Angels in bible, if you consider them Ben Elohim, Sons of God, they come to earth and have relations with human ladies and give birth to the nephilim. So no, its not the same.

 

[firedragon]

And the same cannot be said of men?

Well. Women get pregnant. They have childbirth.

 

[Polymath257]

Thats not relevant. And this is not signing contract. This is about a witness for someone elses contract. The contract could be between women or men. The witnessing is for a latter dispute where the witness will have to provide testimony of what they witnessed. It is not a financial decision they are making. It is someone elses.

This is not relevant and I dont know why you want to bring up a wording and then trying to insert it with some external argument.

No.

So why the different treatment of men witnesses and women witnesses? What relevant difference is there for different rules?

 

[Polymath257]

Well. Women get pregnant. They have childbirth.

So what? Why is that relevant for this issue?

 

[firedragon]

Why is any of that relevant? Seriously. So what if women can get pregnant and give birth. How is that relevant to the issue on the table?

Sometimes women may not be able to go to a courtroom.

 

[firedragon]

So what? Why is that relevant for this issue?

So that.

 

[firedragon]

She doesn't know Arabic? What a surprise! That discussion must be difficult for you then with your limited English writing ability. She might just Google it and realise that you said nothing at all, but no worries, by that time you've "forgotten" what it was all about.

Coffee is great when its hot.

 

[SA Huguenot]

36:55["Companions",
37:48 "with large and beautiful eyes",
38:52 "companions of modest gaze well matched (at thirty-three years of age according to some commentators)"
44:54 wide and beautiful eyes",
52:20 "beautiful houris of wide and beautiful eyes",
55:56 "untouched beforehand by man or jinn",
55:58 "as elegant as rubies and coral",
55:72 "bright-eyed damsels in sheltered in pavilions",
55:74 "untouched by any man", "reclining on green cushions and beautiful carpets",
56:8 / 56:22 "with intensely black eyes set against the whiteness of their irises",
56:35 "created without the process of birth",
78:31–33 and as "splendid companions".

Ha...
If any Muslim scholar would like the western people to think the Horis is not female companions given out to Muslim men for the purpose of sex, they have to discard even more of their religion, and forget how Allah describes these damsels with nice breasts, virgins never touched by men given to the Muslim men as companions.

Oh, then again, these Muslims must ignore what all their aiatilahs, Immams and scholars teaches them.
Such a Muslim who denies the Horis allah gives to Muslim men in paradise, is actually saying Islam is false!
and thirdly, he should not try to convince me that the Muslim man gets 72 or 700 whoriss if he gives his life for Allah.
To me it is useless.

He should go an teach this to those Muslim men who goes out with bombs around their bodies, blowing themself and inocent people up, so they can get to paradise to have sex with his whores.

 

[Polymath257]

No he didnt CT. You should read his book to know what it is.

I did. Why would it require a threat against him?

Also, a fatwa against someone doesn't mean "a contract to kill". A fatawa is an opinion. It means an opinion. Generally when ask a Mufti for an opinion on a particular query you had about something, he would be able to analyse and give a fatwa.

Just FYI.

And the opinion was that he should be killed. That meant he had to go into hiding to protect himself.

Sorry, but that makes the person issuing the fatwa evil.