Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[Koldo]

Man has free will. Human beings causes the suffering of another Human being.

Christians remember that the Biblical GOD is a loving and just GOD and will exercise justice to whom it is due, all in his perfect time.

The ability to cause suffering to others is, however, contingent.
Other than that, suffering does not come solely from the actions of others humans. Animals, diseases, and natural events, to cite a few, also can. But all of these are still contingent.

 

[Nakosis]

And your explanation for chronic (i.e. unnecessary) pain is...?

Remnant of the evolutionary process. The mechanism remains in place regardless whether it's purpose is being fulfilled at that moment.

However I believe we can learn to mentally control pain. If so, one can make a choice to not suffer because of it.

Mind Control: Coping with Chronic Pain | Psychology Today

 

[Nakosis]

I am afraid there may not exist any meaningful descriptions for 'existence' that would do much better than giving a synonym. Do you have any in mind?

Sorry, it is sometimes difficult to find the right words to verbally relate what one experiences or think they understand to someone else.
Your questions help me to try to find better ways clarify my statements.

Do you mean ( there is nothing to perceive or be aware of with human senses ) to the something trying to perceive something else, or for someone to perceive this transcendent something?

There's a very bright light of which there is no source. It is all there is. There is nothing else discernible. No shape, no space, no time. Light and a feeling of a presence. However there is no object or source to attach that presence to. There is a feeling of love with nothing to attach it to.

It's hard to say God exists when there is nothing separately discernible from existence itself.

I don't know how that helps with this debate except there is no suffering there. All suffering seems like something remembered from a dream that was not every actually real.

So while I perceive suffering here, it is no longer real. It's a perception. It's not unpleasant nor something to avoid because I can feel. Even if it is only a perception it's a gift to be able to feel pain at all. It lets me know I exist.

It may indeed be seen as an alarm. An unpleasant alarm ( and useless in some situations ) . Do you have any reason to not consider it unpleasant? Don't you experience it yourself? Or are you being skeptical of your own perception?

Other than specific exceptions i find that pain fits the following definition:"An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder."

I am skeptical of pain's reality. However the perception of these things adds flavor to existence.

 

[uss_bigd]

The ability to cause suffering to others is, however, contingent.
Other than that, suffering does not come solely from the actions of others humans. Animals, diseases, and natural events, to cite a few, also can. But all of these are still contingent.

Diseases and natural events may be caused by man as well. I Don't see why Suffering caused by animals is anyone's fault.

What is your point?

 

[uss_bigd]

Three totally separate concepts that do nothing to clarify the issue.

Question: The question was why does GOD allow suffering?

Answer: GOD allows Suffering because he allows man to make their own choices (free will, e.g the choice to cause the suffering of another human being)

That wouldn't sound good esp for people who looks for evil rather than good. so I am saying this for the people who are looking for answers...

"even though GOD allows suffering, he will show "Justice" in his perfect time."

 

[Koldo]

There's a very bright light of which there is no source. It is all there is. There is nothing else discernible. No shape, no space, no time. Light and a feeling of a presence. However there is no object or source to attach that presence to. There is a feeling of love with nothing to attach it to.

It's hard to say God exists when there is nothing separately discernible from existence itself.

I don't know how that helps with this debate except there is no suffering there. All suffering seems like something remembered from a dream that was not every actually real.

How can you be skeptical of your pain and not of this light, this feeling of love, this feeling of presence?

So while I perceive suffering here, it is no longer real. It's a perception. It's not unpleasant nor something to avoid because I can feel. Even if it is only a perception it's a gift to be able to feel pain at all. It lets me know I exist.

If you perceive suffering, you perceive something unpleasant.
If you perceive nothing unpleasant, you perceive no suffering.

I am skeptical of pain's reality. However the perception of these things adds flavor to existence.

But you still perceive it, don't you?
Why does God allow humans to perceive it?

 

[Koldo]

Diseases and natural events may be caused by man as well. I Don't see why Suffering caused by animals is anyone's fault.

What is your point?

Consider diseases and natural events not caused by man, why does God allow these to exist/happen?

Why does God allow animals to cause suffering on humans?

 

[uss_bigd]

Consider diseases and natural events not caused by man, why does God allow these to exist/happen?

Why does God allow animals to cause suffering on humans?

In so that man will have an opportunity to show compassion and GOD will have the reason to feel compassion to those affected.

Human suffering is one avenue for salvation.. wouldn't you trade 80 years of suffering for ETERNAL joy??

I know you would...

 

[Koldo]

In so that man will have an opportunity to show compassion and GOD will have the reason to feel compassion to those affected.

And how can compassion be more important that happiness?

Human suffering is one avenue for salvation.. wouldn't you trade 80 years of suffering for ETERNAL joy??

I know you would...

There is no need for any trade to happen.
It is within God's powers (omnipotence) to create humans into eternal joy since the start. So, why doesn't he do it?

 

[uss_bigd]

And how can compassion be more important that happiness?



There is no need for any trade to happen.
It is within God's powers (omnipotence) to create humans into eternal joy since the start. So, why doesn't he do it?

Free will, the Biblical GOD doesn't have the power to over rule the decisions made by men.

since Human free will has its negative effects, compassion comes in to save the people who does no wrong, and to save those who has yet to decide between good and evil...


The Biblical GOD is good and just!

 

[PolyHedral]

The Biblical GOD is good and just!

Earthquakes, disease, genetic disorder, flaws in the human psyche, flaws in human biology, environmental instability...

None of those are good or just or decided by free will.

 

[Koldo]

Free will, the Biblical GOD doesn't have the power to over rule the decisions made by men.

since Human free will has its negative effects, compassion comes in to save the people who does no wrong, and to save those who has yet to decide between good and evil...


The Biblical GOD is good and just!

First of all, we started talking about things that have nothing to do with human free will. Or have you forgotten already? You can not use free will in this case to justify everything. Some natural disasters and diseases have nothing to do with human free will.

Second, this doesn't address why God didn't create an environment where suffering was not made possible. As i said, God, being omnipotent, could create a place where regardless of what a human chooses there would be no suffering. If free will exists, then it would still exist in this place. Ask yourself: Do i have free will being unable to fly, to breath underwater, to run a mile per second, and so on? And then make yourself another question: Would my free will cease to exist if i could not suffer?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Earthquakes, disease, genetic disorder, flaws in the human psyche, flaws in human biology, environmental instability...

None of those are good or just or decided by free will.

Some things happen and it is up to us to decide how we are going to respond to them.

God wants us to be these ultimate supreme beings, how can you imagine attaining such a position by sitting around eating marshmallows all day? It is not going to happen.

 

[PolyHedral]

Some things happen and it is up to us to decide how we are going to respond to them.

God wants us to be these ultimate supreme beings, how can you imagine attaining such a position by sitting around eating marshmallows all day? It is not going to happen.

But that's easy when you're superhuman.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

But that's easy when you're superhuman.

yes, however no one becomes "superhuman" over night.

 

[fishy]

Some things happen and it is up to us to decide how we are going to respond to them.

God wants us to be these ultimate supreme beings, how can you imagine attaining such a position by sitting around eating marshmallows all day? It is not going to happen.

If that's what an infinite omnipotent being wants, then why aren't we. After all he created existence itself, if he really wanted us to be supermen then we would be.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

If that's what an infinite omnipotent being wants, then why aren't we. After all he created existence itself, if he really wanted us to be supermen then we would be.

"Created existence itself", Do I need to remind you of this thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/87669-god-did-not-create-anything.html

Go read that.

 

[fishy]

"Created existence itself", Do I need to remind you of this thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/evolution-vs-creationism/87669-god-did-not-create-anything.html

Go read that.

Oh look I can't be held accountable to every little sect and their own little books, lets stick with the major ones shall we, allegedly you believe it as well.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Oh look I can't be held accountable to every little sect and their own little books, lets stick with the major ones shall we, allegedly you believe it as well.

you are accountable to the laws of the universe whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. If you choose to be ungrateful you will be unhappy there is no way around it.

If you want to argue the fact that there is a law that you abide by go here.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/128731-eternal-laws-universe.html

 

[fishy]

you are accountable to the laws of the universe whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. If you choose to be ungrateful you will be unhappy there is no way around it.

If you want to argue the fact that there is a law that you abide by go here.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/128731-eternal-laws-universe.html

Well off topic.