Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[sandy whitelinger]

Question: The question was why does GOD allow suffering?

Answer: GOD allows Suffering because he allows man to make their own choices (free will, e.g the choice to cause the suffering of another human being)

That wouldn't sound good esp for people who looks for evil rather than good. so I am saying this for the people who are looking for answers...

"even though GOD allows suffering, he will show "Justice" in his perfect time."

So, if a meteor lands on my leg and I suffer, it's because of free will? What, I'm free to choose to suffer instead of suck it up and go forward?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Do you mean to say that my sentence ("It remains in opposition to a state of happiness, joy or pleasure.") is a desire and not a fact?

I'm not going to change the subject. You said suffering is wrong because it is opposite of happieness. You have failed to prove why happieness is right and suffering is wrong.

 

[Koldo]

I'm not going to change the subject.

It is you who came up with the whole 'desire' thing. So i wanted some explanation on what you meant by that. :sarcastic

You said suffering is wrong because it is opposite of happieness. You have failed to prove why happieness is right and suffering is wrong.

Omnibenevolence is infinite or unlimited benevolence.
Benevolence is the disposition to do good.
Happiness/joy/pleasure is good.
Suffering ( which is, by definition, necessarily unpleasant ) stands in opposition to happiness/joy/pleasure.
Therefore, for an omnibenevolent God, suffering is wrong ( as it goes against the good ) , and happiness/joy/pleasure is right.

Or we could skip the whole right/wrong part, and just end with: An omnibenevolent and omnipotent God has unlimited power and disposition to good, therefore nothing that could exist in opposition to 'good' will exist.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Omnibenevolence is infinite or unlimited benevolence.
Benevolence is the disposition to do good.
Happiness/joy/pleasure is good.
...

You again failed to prove that happiness is good. You only said that it is.

 

[idea]

So, if a meteor lands on my leg and I suffer, it's because of free will? What, I'm free to choose to suffer instead of suck it up and go forward?

there are more reasons than free will. It also give us appreciation for what is good (take water - you might not appreciate a glass of water fully until after you've ran a marathon across a desert). Also, good and evil are relative terms and do not exist without one another. (theory of relativity - forward does not exist without backwards, up does not exist without down, good does not exist without evil - either everything exists, or nothing exists at all)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

there are more reasons than free will. It also give us appreciation for what is good (take water - you might not appreciate a glass of water fully until after you've ran a marathon across a desert). Also, good and evil are relative terms and do not exist without one another. (theory of relativity - forward does not exist without backwards, up does not exist without down, good does not exist without evil - either everything exists, or nothing exists at all)

The yin/Yang nature of how we percieve our surroundings is, I believe, what allows us to exercise free will. I do not think that is what uss_bigd referring to in the mention of free will.

 

[idea]

The yin/Yang nature of how we percieve our surrondings is, I believe, what allows us to excercise free will.

I agree.

I do not think that is what uss_bigd referring to in the mention of free will.

yea, there are a lot of different ways to think about free will.

 

[Nakosis]

How can you be skeptical of your pain and not of this light, this feeling of love, this feeling of presence?

I'm actually skeptical of both. However my skepticism doesn't change the reality of what I experience.

If you perceive suffering, you perceive something unpleasant.
If you perceive nothing unpleasant, you perceive no suffering.

Granted it's not suffering to me. However it is what you perceive/accept as suffering. It is unpleasant sometimes but only until I learn to deal with it. I see suffering as the result of my own inability to deal with the situation. If I was able to deal with it at the time it wouldn't be suffering. So I see suffering as my lack of capability regardless of what life/God throws at me.

As I understand it, God cause the ignorance of man. So you can blame God for that which indirectly results in man "suffering". However we can we can stop suffering as quickly as we learn.

But you still perceive it, don't you?
Why does God allow humans to perceive it?

I believe we wanted it. Part of the ignorance is that we've forgot that along with why.

 

[Koldo]

You again failed to prove that happieness is good. You only said that it is.

You never asked me to prove happiness is good. :sarcastic

Either way, I will go through some definitions and explain why happiness is good:

1) benevolence
n
1. inclination or tendency to help or do good to others; charity
2. an act of kindness
3. (Historical Terms) (in the Middle Ages) a forced loan or contribution exacted by English kings from their nobility and subjects

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


2) charity
n pl -ties

1. (Social Welfare)
a. the giving of help, money, food, etc., to those in need
b. (as modifier) a charity show

2. (Social Welfare)
a. an institution or organization set up to provide help, money, etc., to those in need
b. (as modifier) charity funds

3. (Social Welfare) the help, money, etc., given to the needy; alms
4. a kindly and lenient attitude towards people
5. love of one's fellow men[from Old French charite, from Latin cāritās affection, love, from cārus dear]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


3) welfare
n
1. health, happiness, prosperity, and well-being in general
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy)a. financial and other assistance given to people in need
b. (as modifier) welfare services

3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) Also called welfare work plans or work to better the social or economic conditions of various underprivileged groups
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)the welfare Informal chiefly Brit the public agencies involved with giving such assistance

(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)on welfare Chiefly US and Canadian in receipt of financial aid from a government agency or other source[from the phrase wel fare; related to Old Norse velferth, German Wohlfahrt; see well1, fare]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003



Benevolence directly relates with doing charity.
Charity directly relates with promoting welfare.
Welfare and happiness are directly related.

Therefore, considering benevolence is the inclination to do good to others and that through it happiness is intentionally promoted, then we can conclude that happiness is good.

 

[Nakosis]

Omnibenevolence is infinite or unlimited benevolence.
Benevolence is the disposition to do good.
Happiness/joy/pleasure is good.
Suffering ( which is, by definition, necessarily unpleasant ) stands in opposition to happiness/joy/pleasure.
Therefore, for an omnibenevolent God, suffering is wrong ( as it goes against the good ) , and happiness/joy/pleasure is right.

Or we could skip the whole right/wrong part, and just end with: An omnibenevolent and omnipotent God has unlimited power and disposition to good, therefore nothing that could exist in opposition to 'good' will exist.

Sometimes suffering is good and happiness is bad.

Suffering motivates me to overcome it. Whatever is causing the suffering.

On the other hand I may find happiness to killing people or torturing small animals.

Good and bad remain relative to the individual. Like suffering it is how you choose to view/perceive the situation you are in. You may see a situation as bad, I may see the same situation as good.

 

[Willamena]

You again failed to prove that happiness is good. You only said that it is.

Is there a difference?

 

[godnotgod]

Even a deity needs a source of entertainment.
in fact, an infinite deity needs an infinite source of entertainment.

I knew it! Ceilng Cat is just toying with us!

 

[uss_bigd]

So, if a meteor lands on my leg and I suffer, it's because of free will? What, I'm free to choose to suffer instead of suck it up and go forward?

That is just ONE of MANY causes of suffering.. and that one example you gave does not over rule my claim that there are suffering that is caused by mans free will to inflict it to others.

therefore, you having the premise in mind that the biblical GOD inflicts the suffering that is caused by nature is NOT fair.

but for the sake of argument, the biblical GOD allowed that you suffer due to natural causes that is not inflicted by another human being.

if that is his way of finding reason to have mercy on you in so that he will have the justification to reward you with eternal life, is that evil?

is finding reason to reward someone with eternal life evil? or is it your way of thinking that is evil?

 

[uss_bigd]

First of all, we started talking about things that have nothing to do with human free will. Or have you forgotten already? You can not use free will in this case to justify everything. Some natural disasters and diseases have nothing to do with human free will.

Second, this doesn't address why God didn't create an environment where suffering was not made possible. As i said, God, being omnipotent, could create a place where regardless of what a human chooses there would be no suffering.

I did say the biblical GOD is NOT omnipotent, as there is something that he cannot do. He cannot force human beings to follow him.

He chose an imperfect world to test human beings if they would follow despite imperfections. the rationale behind this is SATAN holding a rebellion despite his perfect stature.

If free will exists, then it would still exist in this place. Ask yourself: Do i have free will being unable to fly, to breath underwater, to run a mile per second, and so on? And then make yourself another question: Would my free will cease to exist if i could not suffer?

This is not the absence of free will sir, but the absence of the ability to do so. but for everything else that which you have the ability to do...

you do have the ability to choose how/when/where to use them.

 

[uss_bigd]

Earthquakes, disease, genetic disorder, flaws in the human psyche, flaws in human biology, environmental instability...

None of those are good or just or decided by free will.

Suffering is a way to obtain mercy... and if you do obtain mercy you can be considered for eternal life.

how is that evil?

 

[Jinse]

I am not certain if there exists is an entity such as a god being in this universe. Suffering though is a thing that we cannot remove in this world. There is and there will always be suffering. It is part of the balance.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You never asked me to prove happiness is good. :sarcastic

Either way, I will go through some definitions and explain why happiness is good:

1) benevolence
n
1. inclination or tendency to help or do good to others; charity
2. an act of kindness
3. (Historical Terms) (in the Middle Ages) a forced loan or contribution exacted by English kings from their nobility and subjects

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


2) charity
n pl -ties

1. (Social Welfare)
a. the giving of help, money, food, etc., to those in need
b. (as modifier) a charity show

2. (Social Welfare)
a. an institution or organization set up to provide help, money, etc., to those in need
b. (as modifier) charity funds

3. (Social Welfare) the help, money, etc., given to the needy; alms
4. a kindly and lenient attitude towards people
5. love of one's fellow men[from Old French charite, from Latin cāritās affection, love, from cārus dear]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


3) welfare
n
1. health, happiness, prosperity, and well-being in general
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy)a. financial and other assistance given to people in need
b. (as modifier) welfare services

3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) Also called welfare work plans or work to better the social or economic conditions of various underprivileged groups
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)the welfare Informal chiefly Brit the public agencies involved with giving such assistance

(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)on welfare Chiefly US and Canadian in receipt of financial aid from a government agency or other source[from the phrase wel fare; related to Old Norse velferth, German Wohlfahrt; see well1, fare]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003



Benevolence directly relates with doing charity.
Charity directly relates with promoting welfare.
Welfare and happiness are directly related.

Therefore, considering benevolence is the inclination to do good to others and that through it happiness is intentionally promoted, then we can conclude that happiness is good.

You clearly do not have a clue as to how to put forth an argument.

 

[Koldo]

I'm actually skeptical of both. However my skepticism doesn't change the reality of what I experience.

Certainly.

As I understand it, God cause the ignorance of man. So you can blame God for that which indirectly results in man "suffering". However we can we can stop suffering as quickly as we learn.

How does this apply to babies though?

I believe we wanted it. Part of the ignorance is that we've forgot that along with why.

We couldn't want something we didn't know of, correct?
How did the very first human beings come to know of it?
Why did God allow us to know of it?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Is there a difference?

Between proving it's good and just stating that it's good?

 

[Koldo]

Sometimes suffering is good and happiness is bad.

Suffering motivates me to overcome it. Whatever is causing the suffering.

What would you achieve by overcoming suffering?

On the other hand I may find happiness to killing people or torturing small animals.

Why would you consider it bad though? Because it degrades another animal's happiness. Therefore, happiness is only bad if it comes at the cost of someone else's happiness. And this is contingent, which means it just happens to be the case someone could be happy by doing so, however, in another possible world, this could have been impossible.

Good and bad remain relative to the individual. Like suffering it is how you choose to view/perceive the situation you are in. You may see a situation as bad, I may see the same situation as good.

Not every suffering depends on how you view a situation. Unwanted pain is unpleasant no matter how you look at it.