• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Debate on Abortion.

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
From the title:
Yes dear, and on one side of the argument are people claiming life begins before conception as
When a sperm and egg cell combine, it becomes something fundamentally different. It becomes a human being in its early stages.
So the abortion is murder.
On the other side is a group saying life begins at conception.
Still further are those wishing to leave it mostly with the women and their medical doctors to make the right choice for them.

So to me it is very much the crux of the debate. But, then again, I suppose now I see why it is over 400 posts :D
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I believe that when a spirit first enters a body, there is a lot of learning to do - have you seen a newborn learn how to eat, hold their head up, kick, stretch, trying to figure out how their bodies work? It's a big learning curve.

I think it would be like learning how to drive a car - only a body instead of a car. They are thinking about their body, what it is, and how it works. They learn some of this while in the womb, as they don't start out at birth completely ignorant of everything.

I have three kids. My third kid recognized her siblings in the delivery room (from all of the noise / poking going on from them before birth)

My first baby - when I first held her, I recognized her motions. Her first movements outside were the same as they were inside.

Good for you..even though I think yor are highly exaggerating and highly emotional about what is real and what isnt you definately no matter what prediciment you are in should'nt have an abortion.

Oh and yes I have seen a newborn learn how to eat.(on my breast)

That is NOT the same as saying a "pregnancy" starting at conception is a "baby" and its "thinking".

And Im wondering what "moves' your first born had LATE term pre birth that every other single baby doesnt have?

Yeah dude I have had 3 children in my "tummy"..they kick and roll around after about 16-18 weeks weeks..They even hick-up.Just like the rest of us.

And you are GUESSING that your 3rd kid "recognized" anyone at birth.You are completely making that up and guesing on that.


Your 3rd "kid" never told you that".And if she did you need to call some scientist to report the phenomenon you just reported to me.

Love


Dallas
 
Last edited:

no-body

Well-Known Member
I believe that when a spirit first enters a body, there is a lot of learning to do - have you seen a newborn learn how to eat, hold their head up, kick, stretch, trying to figure out how their bodies work? It's a big learning curve.

I think it would be like learning how to drive a car - only a body instead of a car. They are thinking about their body, what it is, and how it works. They learn some of this while in the womb, as they don't start out at birth completely ignorant of everything.

I have three kids. My third kid recognized her siblings in the delivery room (from all of the noise / poking going on from them before birth)

My first baby - when I first held her, I recognized her motions. Her first movements outside were the same as they were inside.


It is wonderful that you had the choice to experience those things but your beliefs of what a fetus is aren't universal and you should at least acknowledge that whether you think others are deluding themselves or not.

To get to the crux of things "the spirit entering a body" is not an observable medical condition. All the pictures of baby like fetuses and heart warming guilt filled stories don't prove anything. I'll leave the decision to secular law and objective medical doctors.
 

Rightmind

New Member
At 40+ pages it's a little difficult to determine what the ongoing debate is really about. In fact, even the first post seemed to be somewhat vague in that matter. Are we debating whether or not abortion is moral? Are we arguing that it should be made illegal or see increased legislation? Or maybe we're trying to figure out a solution to the problem as a whole (and it is a problem, no can argue that there isn't dissent over the issue). Either way, I'm itching for some controversy and this is a good opportunity for me to put in my two cents on the matter.

I'd like to start off by saying that I am opposed to abortion. I am not "pro-life" because that puts a bias on my argument right away, just like the term "pro-choice" does. Frankly, we'd be better off if people simply stopped referring to themselves as either. My reasons for opposing abortion in the majority of cases (please note: not all), are roughly the same as the OPs. It simply can't be justified as a means of birth control, and any argument I've been presented with that claims that the fetus does not qualify as a human being has always failed in some significant regard. In fact, the kind of argument that I believe has any chance of providing a moral validation for abortion is one that focuses on woman's rights vs. human rights.

One of the things that really bothers me about this is the number of male centric arguments both opposed to and supportive of abortion. I'm a man; I'm opposed to abortion; but I'm not arrogant enough to assume that my personal involvement in the instance of a pregnancy some how entitles me to determine whether or not a woman should be forced to carry such a heavy burden. That isn't to say that as a man I can't have an opinion on it. I may not be able to experience a pregnancy or childbirth but I can certainly understand them.

But back to the topic of this thread in particular, while the OP's argument may not have been perfect was still well though. Also, and this may be because I had to skip many of the pages here, but I have yet to be presented with a compelling argument that does promote abortion, both on and off of these forums. Of course, this is referring to whether or not abortion is an ethical problem. I believe that life begins at conception and as far as I can tell there is no effective argument that can deny that. If I've missed one, I'd love to be presented with it.

The crux of the argument remains to be women's rights. When you think of abortion the moral dilemma should not be "does a fetus count as a human life?", as far as I'm concerned that isn't even an issue anymore. What you should be wondering is whether right to life overrides right to choose. I for one think it does, but not in all situations.

This is where I start to sound especially insensitive, and believe me I don't like it. I know this is a delicate issue and that tempers run hot on both sides, but before someone flames me as being a narrow minded bigot please take a moment to consider everything else I've said. Even those who are supportive of or have had abortions please know that my heart goes out to you. I know that it is probably the most difficult decision a person could make and I don't hold it against anyone for making it. Okay, here goes.


The reason why I believe right to life overrides the right to choose (yes, I'm kind of resorting to those terms I condemned earlier :shrug:), is because of all the alternatives. Birth control options are abundant and easier to obtain than ever. You can get the pill, use foam, a diaphragm, get your tubes tied, get a vasectomy, or use one of the greatest inventions of all time: the condom. The condom is particularly important because not only can it prevent pregnancy but it can prevent the spread of so many STDs that it is irresponsible for anyone to not consider it when having sex. Apart from the number of pharmacutical and medical contrceptives that exist there are also a number of ways that one can have sex that won't result in pregnancy; Oral, anal (give it a shot, and patience), hands only and there are probably a few other terms I'm forgetting but watch some videos and you'll get some ideas. Lastly, there is abstinence, the only 100% effective pregnancy deterrent.

I acknowledged the fact that abstinence is the only fool proof birth control method for a reason. All those other methods, for whatever reason, can fail. But I don't believe that means that abortion should still be widely accepted, and I feel that way for one reason. We have known, and will continue to know, that sex equals babies for a very long time. When about to have sex one should remind themselves of the consequences their actions might have. If in fact a fetus is a human being, can we really justify abortion just because a person "wasn't ready" to have or carry a child? Didn't they know when having sex, that they might get pregnant? When a person decides to take a risk then shouldn't they have to deal with the consequences? There are some who would argue that an abortion is dealing with the consequences, but it seems to me like it's putting the responsibility on the fetus, which, if we all agree is a human being, is unethical.

Now this is not a black and white issue. There are cases where abortion is acceptable, though this is another matter of debate. The real problem with the abortion issue is that both sides are hesitant to acknowledge that the real solution is to agree to disagree. By maintaining a complete and utter lack of abortion legislation (I'm Canadian and writing from home) there will always be an uproar, especially when the babies delivered to abortions performed ratio is made clear. Conversely, banning abortion altogether will simply drive women back to back alley abortion clinics to receive unsafe procedures where the chance of the woman dying or being hurt is significantly higher. The real solution is to change our attitude towards sex.

If birth control was more readily available and sex education (real education, not "abstinence only" programs) was more effectively supported there would be less unwanted pregnancies. There is a local church that has a program set up to support pregnant teenagers who want to keep their baby, or assist them in carrying it to term and putting it up for adoption. These are trends and practices that I want to see more of. There would still probably be abortions and I would still consider them to be morally wrong, but at least the number would be heavily reduced. As a society I believe the only way for us to come to some consensus on the issue is for us to put down the picket signs and embrace the more common solution.

That was much longer than what I originally intended to write. Now my brain is tired.:areyoucra
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I believe that life begins at conception and as far as I can tell there is no effective argument that can deny that.

Interesting. On what basis do you say "life begins at conception" -- as if it hasn't begun earlier? Doesn't life begin prior to conception? Aren't both the egg and sperm alive?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Interesting. On what basis do you say "life begins at conception" -- as if it hasn't begun earlier? Doesn't life begin prior to conception? Aren't both the egg and sperm alive?
Isn't this little more than word wacking, Sunstone? Let me ask you as question: when do you believe it legitimate to speak of a developing fetus as human life and why?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Isn't this little more than word wacking, Sunstone? Let me ask you as question: when do you believe it legitimate to speak of a developing fetus as human life and why?

Of course it's legitimate to speak of a devloping fetus as a human life. Life begins prior to conception. Why wouldn't it be legitimate to speak of a fetus as a human life? Or do you suppose there are other than arbitrary grounds for asserting that life begins at conception?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Of course it's legitimate to speak of a devloping fetus as a human life. Life begins prior to conception. Why wouldn't it be legitimate to speak of a fetus as a human life? Or do you suppose there are other than arbitrary grounds for asserting that life begins at conception?
You didn't actually answer the question he'd asked. At what point is it legitimate to speak of a developing fetus as human?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Or do you suppose there are other than arbitrary grounds for asserting that life begins at conception?
I "suppose" that discussion is best facilitated by answering the question asked, so let me try again: when do you believe it legitimate to speak of a developing fetus as human life and why?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I "suppose" that discussion is best facilitated by answering the question asked, so let me try again: when do you believe it legitimate to speak of a developing fetus as human life and why?

I think it's clear from what I said that a fetus at any stage of development is a human life, Jay. Just as a sperm and egg are human life.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think it's clear from what I said that a fetus at any stage of development is a human life, Jay. Just as a sperm and egg are human life.
That's right, Sunstone, it's all human life: the sperm, the egg, the epithelial tissue, and there is, in my opinion, no more effective and disreputable way to devalue of human life than to maximally dilute the meaning of the term. Congratulations on your semantic victory ...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
That's right, Sunstone, it's all human life: the sperm, the egg, the epithelial tissue, and there is, in my opinion, no more effective and disreputable way to devalue of human life than to maximally dilute the meaning of the term. Congratulations on your semantic victory ...

Nice spin. Have a good day.
 

mobious

gold member
there is no scientific way to decide where life begins because it is going to depend on your stance on the issue. if you are pro-life it is going to be at conception. if you are pro-choice it will depend but generally be near birth.
 
Abortion is a topic where I'm probably "sitting on the fence". The past few posts brought up fetuses, life and what is a human so I'll give my views before giving my overall view of abortion. The fetus is a form of human life: the mother and father both are/were humans, the mother carrying the fetus is human and the fetus (later on baby) has human DNA. It's human. From a scientific perspective, there's no true beginning of life because it varies on what one defines life to be.

I do think fetuses are alive, however, there is a difference between killing a fetus and murder. Although the fetus is certainly alive and a human, it is essentially an "extension" of the mother, that is, the fetus does have its own DNA but is physically attached to the mother so it is akin to a tumour. Also, depending when the fetus is aborted, the nervous system will not have yet developed and so it's akin to killing a plant. In both cases it's not murder and yet in both cases, that's what a fetus is. One can make the argument of what it will be in the future but that argument fails unless one can see years and years into the future. Supposing one isn't a legit psychic, the fetus' future is already known: it will grow, it will become a person and it will do something. It doesn't matter what the specifics are, such as what career it will obtain or if it will be the next Hitler because at the current time, these specifics are not known and it's pointless to dwell on them to such a degree. I think though that the key is that although the fetus is a human and is alive, it's not a person, not on a legal, philosophical nor sociological level. On a legal level a person has duties and rights. On a philosophical level a person is rational and self-conscious. On a sociological level a person is part of a society and their behavior can be influenced by others or religion or culture. A fetus has none of these.

As I mentioned above I'm "sitting on the fence" because for me it matters what the reasons and context are for the abortion. If a woman is going to have her 10th child and uses abortion as a means of preventing a pregnancy, then although I think it's reckless behavior, if the woman (and possibly the partner) have the resources, then the fetus should be kept. If however the woman does not want the pregnancy or wants to conceal it for various reasons, then I'm more inclined to support the abortion. The reasons and context matter for me in order to establish whether or not it's amoral.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Although the fetus is certainly alive and a human, it is essentially an "extension" of the mother, that is, the fetus does have its own DNA but is physically attached to the mother so it is akin to a tumour.
So, the act of detaching this quasi-tumor (which is "certainly alive and a human") from its mother is what renders its elimination no longer generally acceptable?
 

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
I think it's clear from what I said that a fetus at any stage of development is a human life, Jay. Just as a sperm and egg are human life.

I don't agree with your postion of sperm and egg as human life, I think symantically you could say life though, but I do agree that you made your possition clear enough from your previous post to answer the question possed to you by jay.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I think it's clear from what I said that a fetus at any stage of development is a human life, Jay. Just as a sperm and egg are human life.

Actually, I think the more proper definitions would be that an egg and a sperm are products of A human life. Once they are joined together, and thereby complete the makings of A human DNA chain...they are a separate human life. An egg or a sperm are no more separate human entities as are fingernails, hair strands, or skin samples. Each carry samples of a human's DNA. Each are products of a particular human. Neither, however, are a human lifeform. An egg and a sperm combined create a zygote, with it's own unique DNA and therefore, is a human life unto itself.
 
Top