ElishaElijah
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They are old I agree because God is Eternal, but to say they don’t correlate to anything is false. What about Love, Joy, Peace, Forgiveness, Mercy etc.?
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Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?
- Thread starter danieldemol
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No gods are known to exist, so this is an unjustifiable claim. It is rejected by logical default.
Natural human emotions. We often see believers try to attribute these positive emotions to any number of versions of god, but this has no sound argument. It would be interesting if only thgeists showed these good emotions while atheists and heathen religious folk did not, as that would suggest a real cause and effect due to devotion to the "one true religion". But we don't. We see many atheists show loving and moral behavior, and even Christians who are sociopaths and cruel.
God and Satan are better explained as metaphors for the good and bad in human behavior. I would also suggest heaven and hell are mental states, not some post-death destinations. Many Christians adopt a definition of these ideas as literal, and that is a very dubious and indefensible approach.
ElishaElijah
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Jesus Christ is well known so there is Only 1 known God who became man, lived among us, died, was buried, rose from the dead. Very well documented.
The Book of Acts shows the work of God the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost and He is working still at this time which many people have hardened their hearts to and blasphemed, which is why they have convinced themselves that there is no God.
I know better and say with certainty that unless a person was to possess ALL the knowledge in the universe they cannot say there is no God. I would ask any atheist if it is possible for God to exist? If you say yes then there you go, if you say no then you would have to say that you possess all the knowledge in the universe.
So the myth is well known. That doesn't imply it's true. The story of Santa Claus is globally known, so by your way of thinking it must be true as well.
And there other ancient stories of gods that were human, were resurrected, and so on, so the Jesus myth is not that unique.
So what, it's a story. Fiction exists in the world, don't you know? There is little in the Gospels that can be presumed true. There is a reason believers use faith instead of reason.
That's why we use the rules of logic and defer to the logical default which means we don;t assume any concept or claim is true UNTIL there is adequate evidence that demonstrates it is true. Reliogious concepts are notorious for lacking adequate evidence. So you can cliam a God exists and i will ask for evidence. Can you provide any that is conclusive and beyond doubt?
Sure, most all the god concepts I have read about seem possible. But who cares. It's possible the Tooith Fairy exists and uses special powers to stay hidden. Anything is possible if you frame a concept in a way that doesn't contract facts. Let's note that many Christians, like creationists, do make claims that facts and science refute, yet they still believe. That is what religion does, it damages and distorts how many believers think. It creates a bad habit that the believer then becomes reliant on, and gets in debates with critical thinkers in which the believer is shown to be in error.
Who cares? Any arbitrary idea can be possible. It means nothing. I am honest in saying that gods could possibly exist, can youy match me and admit it's possible that gods don't exist and you are mistaken in your religious belief?
ElishaElijah
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I can say positively that God not only exists but He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross, was buried and rose again so I could have Eternal Life. He said He would send the Holy Spirit to live in us. He is the guarantee of my inheritance. I know this and it’s a fact, it’s not a belief because He gave the Holy Spirit to me. It’s not a belief that I am talking to God because He also speaks to me by His Spirit and confirms this with His Word.
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Atheists don't need the biblical God because they can make moral or ethical decisions in difficult situations without relying on a god to do so for them. They also don't fear a vengeful, jealous God who threatens to damn them to hell unless they ask for his forgiveness, repent of allegedly sinning against him, and obey his commandments. In my opinion, my personal experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person. He hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."
I'm not an atheist, but I've also rejected the biblical God in my life. I renounced my belief in him and my Christian faith because God serves absolutely no purpose in my life, and I know that I'm much better off without believing in and having faith in God. I firmly believe this because of all the years of abuse, neglect, bullying, and harassment I experienced growing up. I have had to deal with PTSD for years as an adult because of all the trauma and violence I endured while growing up. I survived twelve years of constant bullying and harassment at school and thirteen and a half years of abuse and neglect at home. I genuinely believed in God in the midst of all the abuse and bullying I suffered. I would fervently pray to God, begging him to save and protect me, but despite all my desperate cries to him, I was still subjected to years of abuse, neglect, bullying, and harassment until I was eighteen. I saved myself from the abuse and bullying shortly after I turned eighteen when I confronted my abusers, and God had nothing to do with it. To be honest, all the negativity I experienced during the years I was a Christian eventually led me to Wicca and, later, polytheism, and being a Wiccan has been a very positive experience.
I don't grovel at the feet of any of the gods for fear of incurring their wrath and being condemned to eternal torment in hell because I "sinned" against them, and don't grovel at their feet to confess my transgressions and beg for their forgiveness. I also don't feel compelled to worship a specific god or goddess, nor do I feel compelled to always live morally upright in order to appease a vengeful and jealous God who threatens to damn me to hell and torment me for all eternity if I don't seek his forgiveness and follow his rules. I'm not afraid of any deities, and I'm not afraid of their wrath. I don't trust any god to look after my health, the health of my loved ones and friends, or to keep my family and I safe. I don't ask any gods for anything, nor do I ask them to keep an eye on me or look after my needs. I can care for myself and my family without the assistance of any gods. To be honest, there is no doubt in my mind that renouncing my Christian faith was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It took some time for me to let go of my faith in God and heal, but forsaking my faith turned my life around for the better. I have peace and joy in my heart, and I feel content with my life. That's something that I never felt during the thirty years I was a Christian and during the years before when I prayed to God, asking him to protect me from being abused and bullied. I compare my experience of letting go of my Christian beliefs to that of being imprisoned, except that my cell door was always open and I was unaware that I could leave whenever I wanted to. And I feel like Christianity was a prison for me, and now I'm free from it.
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This is not factual. You are only repeating basic Christian beliefs. You offer no evidence or arguments, so it is rejected.
This is what some Christians are exposed to and adopt without scrutiny.
This sounds like something you repeat to yourself to further reinforce the belief. It isn’t convincing in debate. So irrelevant.
Soandso
ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
Um... I don't think I'd say that I'm planning on dying more than I just acknowledge that it's an aspect of the natural way things seem to be. Better to face reality than live in delusion
Soandso
ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
What kind of god creates a lake of fire to torture people for all eternity? He could have made the rules anything he wanted, right?
ElishaElijah
Return
This is something I have received from God and something He promised that’s available to every human being. Only the person who has rejected Jesus Christ would say otherwise because they haven’t received anything themselves. So yes it’s a fact and provable by a changed life, will also be shown at the Judgement. So we can argue all day till that time but it will come and that’s when everything will be exposed as the Bible says. So that part is my belief because it hasn’t happened yet . But as far as God and what He’a done and given me is definitely true and a fact.
See my facts aren’t like scientific facts…scientific facts can be wrong and are applauded when they are and it’s said see how great science is they proved their own facts wrong, this is funny.
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ElishaElijah
Return
It wasn’t meant for people, it’s meant for Satan, people choose that by rejecting Jesus Christ. Why don’t you ask Him yourself?
ElishaElijah
Return
So there is a movie coming out March 13 called “Come Out In Jesus Name” showing demons manifesting in people and getting expelled in the Name of Jesus. Since this discussion is about evidence for demons today, here is an opportunity for people to see for themselves.
ElishaElijah
Return
Derek Prince is a good resource on Demons and expelling them as well as this:
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Colt
Well-Known Member
I've always known God was good and that religion contains erroneous beliefs about God. I also used to use that as an excuse not to have a relationship with the true God until I was ready.
You seem to have an idea of the goodness of God, why dont you have a connected relationship with that God?
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
In my opinion, the type of God who would do this is an evil, sadistic, and psychotic God who takes personal pleasure in tormenting people. If this God is truly all-knowing, all-powerful, and always present as the Bible claims he is, then he would be aware of what will occur in the past, present, and future. And if he is aware of what will happen in the past, present, and future, then as the creator, he alone is morally responsible for sabotaging his own creation by creating humans, despite knowing that they would become morally corrupted and rebel against him. How despicable and morally corrupt can this God be for creating humans knowing they will become morally corrupt, then holding them morally accountable for "sinning against him" and damning them to hell if they don't ask for his forgiveness and repent of behaving exactly as he predicted they would? And evidently, this God decided that punishing the first humans he created for "sinning against him" wasn't enough, so he cruelly decided to punish the rest of humanity, who were born afterward and had nothing to do with the first humans initially disobeying this God. But, of course, I don't believe the mythical biblical account of the first humans in any case or anything else written in the Bible; however, if I did believe the Bible, then I would blame the infinite "all-knowing and all-powerful" creator rather than his finite creations, humanity and the devil, for mankind's moral downfall. I think that the old adage, "The buck stops here!" would apply in that situation.
Apostle John
“Go ahead, look up Revelation 6”
“the natural way things seem to be”? You don’t sound sure. Is creation natural or supernatural?
You could be living in a delusion.
All I see here is a charismatic preacher surrounded by what appears to me to be gullible people.
All I saw here was a great actor propping up a charsimatic leader, but no evidence for the claim of possession. This charismatic leader could walk around a secular mental health institution healing people in Jesus name and having it confirmed by doctors in follow up appointments that they were healed if he was genuine.
In my opinion.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Spare me the proselytizing, because I'm not interested. I don't care whether you believe in the biblical God or not; just don't try to push your beliefs off on me. So, don't bother trying to convert me and preach at me if that's your intent. I wasted 30 years as a Christian and years before that sincerely believing in God despite being severely abused while growing up, and I'm not going to waste any more of my life clinging to what I now see as nothing more than an emotional crutch. I'm not sure how I can be any clearer than to say that I don't want or need God in my life. If he does exist, he can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. I recommend re-reading the post you quoted of mine for further details about how I feel about God, and don't outright dismiss what I've said.
ElishaElijah
Return
You would have to go yourself and see, this may not be for you but many people who are wondering what’s going on in their lives that have them bound in addictions, tormented, full of fear, depression and anxiety can know there is freedom found In the Mighty Name of Jesus. Many people believe there is no hope for them like it was for me but let me tell you Jesus sets people free, he uses believers just like me! I was lost and now in His Name I set people free because He gave me that authority. So awesome!
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
Epilepsy, schizophrenia, dissociative identity disorder, hypnagogia, ritual trance, the ideomotor effect, nocturnal emissions, experiences with exorcism, and the findings of paranormal investigations are all evidence of demons. They're just weak evidence that fails under scrutiny.
There's also the ancient concept that our soul is inhabited or influenced by spirits, not dissimilar to the concept of archetypes in archetypal psychology. Here, demons are figments of the mind which correspond to various temptations to violate the rules attributed to God. This is an extension of mind-body dualism, where the mind itself is supernatural and capable of apprehending other immaterial realms and other disembodied minds through dreams, visions, out-of-body experiences, extra-sensory perception, and of course, ritual trance, hypnagogia, and hallucinogens.
Of course, mind-body dualism was laid to rest by science long before anyone on this forum was born. So while people maintain the cultural language of "demons" to refer to, for instance, someone struggling with addiction or grief, they lack an actual belief in the existence of demons.
Demons are also sometimes seen as the supernatural forces "behind" natural disasters, disease, madness, sometimes even death, sexual desire, material desire, curiosity, and so on. In this way, they are not dissimilar to gods, and in fact they often adopt the name of pagan deities like Ba'al and Astarte. If we're being charitable and call this a theoretical model, it is a model of the natural world that is incompatible with our modern scientific understanding of these phenomena because there is no longer any room for demonic influence to affect them. This understanding of demons can also be understood as an aspect of cultural language where these facets of nature are abstracted to personification, maybe partially fueled by hyper-active agency detection, though.
So there is evidence of demons that can be used to rationally justify a literal belief in these beings, but in my opinion none of the evidence holds up to scrutiny. The people that can be rationally justified in believing in the existence of demons can only do so out of ignorance and misinformation, from where I stand. I could be proven wrong in the face of superior evidence that I myself am ignorant about, or if someone can demonstrate that I am misinformed about the better evidence against these arguments for the existence of demons, but I am not going to say that there is absolutely no evidence for demons whatsoever and believing in them is always irrational. I just don't believe in demons, which means that I also have to believe that the people who do are at least mistaken.
There's also the ancient concept that our soul is inhabited or influenced by spirits, not dissimilar to the concept of archetypes in archetypal psychology. Here, demons are figments of the mind which correspond to various temptations to violate the rules attributed to God. This is an extension of mind-body dualism, where the mind itself is supernatural and capable of apprehending other immaterial realms and other disembodied minds through dreams, visions, out-of-body experiences, extra-sensory perception, and of course, ritual trance, hypnagogia, and hallucinogens.
Of course, mind-body dualism was laid to rest by science long before anyone on this forum was born. So while people maintain the cultural language of "demons" to refer to, for instance, someone struggling with addiction or grief, they lack an actual belief in the existence of demons.
Demons are also sometimes seen as the supernatural forces "behind" natural disasters, disease, madness, sometimes even death, sexual desire, material desire, curiosity, and so on. In this way, they are not dissimilar to gods, and in fact they often adopt the name of pagan deities like Ba'al and Astarte. If we're being charitable and call this a theoretical model, it is a model of the natural world that is incompatible with our modern scientific understanding of these phenomena because there is no longer any room for demonic influence to affect them. This understanding of demons can also be understood as an aspect of cultural language where these facets of nature are abstracted to personification, maybe partially fueled by hyper-active agency detection, though.
So there is evidence of demons that can be used to rationally justify a literal belief in these beings, but in my opinion none of the evidence holds up to scrutiny. The people that can be rationally justified in believing in the existence of demons can only do so out of ignorance and misinformation, from where I stand. I could be proven wrong in the face of superior evidence that I myself am ignorant about, or if someone can demonstrate that I am misinformed about the better evidence against these arguments for the existence of demons, but I am not going to say that there is absolutely no evidence for demons whatsoever and believing in them is always irrational. I just don't believe in demons, which means that I also have to believe that the people who do are at least mistaken.