Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[ElishaElijah]

I have read many parts of the Bible, and I understand it through the historical facts of HOW it was written, and HOW it was edited and created over the millennia. My understanding is fact-based, not faith-based. Your interpretation is very much self-serving to what you want to believe.

How can you say this when you only read parts of the Bible and not all. I gave you Scripture for the basis of what I live, teach and believe. You said my interpretation of the Bible is self serving so prove it.

 

[F1fan]

“For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

For you and the others asking for answers, we are talking about people who claim to be (Christians)

You claim to be Christian, and being Christian has a lot of variation to you believers. There is no one set truth. There is no authority one sect has over others.

For a Christian the authority is The Word of God, if a person doesn’t accept that then they aren’t a Christian.

The Word of God as THEY interpret it. Who has the one and only right interpretation? You? Could you be mistaken?

When the Bible says not to worship any other God, that there is one mediator between God and man that is Christ Jesus.

This is limited to Christians. It’s irrelevant to Jews, Muslims and those of any other religion.

When the Bible shows that Joseph had marital relations with Mary after Jesus was born and had children. Then when the Catholic Church teaches otherwise with praying to saints, praying the rosary and to Mary then they are false teachers, teaching doctrines of demons.

They don’t think so. Perhaps you are not understanding their doctrines. In any event, your accusation doesn’t seem credible given there are many good Catholics and many bad people of your faith.

 

[F1fan]

How can you say this when you only read parts of the Bible and not all. I gave you Scripture for the basis of what I live, teach and believe. You said my interpretation of the Bible is self serving so prove it.

Well if Christians were unified in one interpretation then you might have a point. But there is a broad set of differences and conflicts among your own people. So that I approach the Bible rationally and factually, and reject religious assumptions, seems a more truthful way to understand it. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have different assumptions of the Bible, why can’t I reject them all and use facts to understand this collection of stories?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well if Christians were unified in one interpretation then you might have a point. But there is a broad set of differences and conflicts among your own people. So that I approach the Bible rationally and factually, and reject religious assumptions, seems a more truthful way to understand it. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have different assumptions of the Bible, why can’t I reject them all and use facts to understand this collection of stories?

You still didn’t address the comment and answer. The Bible is clear on most areas especially concerning God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Salvation, Eternal Life and how to tell the true from the false.
You’re talking in generalities and pick something where there is disagreement in the areas I just mentioned, compare the teaching with the Bible, it will be clear when you look at Scripture and tell which is true or false teaching.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have read many parts of the Bible, and I understand it through the historical facts of HOW it was written, and HOW it was edited and created over the millennia. My understanding is fact-based, not faith-based. Your interpretation is very much self-serving to what you want to believe.

It has been my experience that former Christians are usually more knowledgeable about the Bible and Christian theology than current Christians. Some Christians online told me shortly after I left Christianity that I couldn't possibly understand the Bible because I wasn't a Christian and that, since I didn't have the Holy Spirit, I couldn't properly spiritually discern the Bible. I told them that I had been a devout Christian for thirty years, that I had read the Bible from front to back several times, and that I had spent nearly five years helping my nephew get his Master of Theological Studies. During that time, we meticulously studied and researched the Bible and Christian theology. But it didn't seem to matter to them because they insisted not only that I couldn't properly spiritually discern the Bible without the Holy Spirit but that I'd never been a "true Christian" because I left Christianity. I simply couldn't reason with these Christians because, I guess, they were convinced that I was never a "true Christian" and apparently I wasn't worth the time or effort. When I was a devout Christian, I read the Bible through the narrow lens of Christian indoctrination, so I believed it to be God's infallible and inerrant word, as I had been taught. However, after I renounced my faith, I reread the Bible, but this time without the rose-colored glasses of Christian indoctrination. Needless to say, I no longer believe that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God—quite the contrary, as you can see if you read my posts here and here.

 

[F1fan]

It has been my experience that former Christians are usually more knowledgeable about the Bible and Christian theology than current Christians. Some Christians online told me shortly after I left Christianity that I couldn't possibly understand the Bible because I wasn't a Christian and that, since I didn't have the Holy Spirit, I couldn't properly spiritually discern the Bible. I told them that I had been a devout Christian for thirty years, that I had read the Bible from front to back several times, and that I had spent nearly five years helping my nephew get his Master of Theological Studies. During that time, we meticulously studied and researched the Bible and Christian theology. But it didn't seem to matter to them because they insisted not only that I couldn't properly spiritually discern the Bible without the Holy Spirit but that I'd never been a "true Christian" because I left Christianity. I simply couldn't reason with these Christians because, I guess, they were convinced that I was never a "true Christian" and apparently I wasn't worth the time or effort. When I was a devout Christian, I read the Bible through the narrow lens of Christian indoctrination, so I believed it to be God's infallible and inerrant word, as I had been taught. However, after I renounced my faith, I reread the Bible, but this time without the rose-colored glasses of Christian indoctrination. Needless to say, I no longer believe that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God—quite the contrary, as you can see if you read my posts here and here.

The funny thing is that it’s not the Bible that is what believers work from, it’s their interpretation. How many question their own input and have doubts? Not the fervent absolutists. They ignore this weak link in the chain to “truth”. I seldom debate Bible content, rather I challenge how a believer interprets any given text.

Does it follow Jesus to use the Bible against fellow Christians? Of course not. But it is an easy path for a wounded ego.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The funny thing is that it’s not the Bible that is what believers work from, it’s their interpretation. How many question their own input and have doubts? Not the fervent absolutists. They ignore this weak link in the chain to “truth”. I seldom debate Bible content, rather I challenge how a believer interprets any given text.

Does it follow Jesus to use the Bible against fellow Christians? Of course not. But it is an easy path for a wounded ego.

See how you twist things… We use the Bible to open up the Truth so we can come into agreement with God and be One with Him. Do you have a wounded ego? Is that why you bring it up?
It’s the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, the Spirit doesn’t contradict the Word of God but leads believers in the Truth.
God hasn’t called believers to be in unity with a mix of truth and lies for unity sake.

 

[nPeace]

No. No. It is I that have to wonder what posts you are responding to.

Your responses aren't to anything I have claimed.

I think you are upset that I was so ably capable of refuting your post attempting to equate natural phenomena and scientific conclusions in some illogical syllogism to conclude evidence for demons where there is none.

I said that I have never seen a demon. I want to know how a person can know something is a demon or someone is possessed by a demon compared to ordinary causes for whatever it is that leads to the claim of demon.

I know you don't like me and I don't care. But what you are doing seems like a passage aggressive attempt to label me as "not a true Christian". It is a straw man response.

Do you consider that good witness or expression of Christian values?

Can you actually address my real points or is it going to be more straw?

Can you show me where the Bible provides answers to determine the trophic levels of invertebrate organisms in and old growth forest? It being more reliable than science and scientists, I would appreciate knowing what it says on that subject.

Why are you judging me? Why would you try to claim someone is upset other than to try to assume your own righteousness?
Did I say I am upset? No. Do I look upset? No. Did I post an emoji? No.

I simply restated what I said, and asked you a few questions.
Why do you question me when you do not want me to question you? Don't these things tell you anything at all, for those many years I have tried.... well we, because it's not just me... to draw this to your attention?

If you want persons to answer your question, be fair, and respond to theirs. They are not strawman. They relate to the topic.

The OP asks if there is evidence for demons, and my post was very precise in addressing it, and I think followed logical reason.
I won't repeat it, but it gave persons the opportunity to present an argument against it.

I have not seen you do so. You just dismissed it entirely, and created your own arguments... well if one can call that an argument. They seemed more like complaints, and accusations... which, is what a strawman is.
So, evidently, you are the one creating a strawman, and ignoring what was said.

 

[SkepticThinker]

See how you twist things… We use the Bible to open up the Truth so we can come into agreement with God and be One with Him. Do you have a wounded ego? Is that why you bring it up?
It’s the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, the Spirit doesn’t contradict the Word of God but leads believers in the Truth.
God hasn’t called believers to be in unity with a mix of truth and lies for unity sake.

Wait, how do we know the Bible is the "Truth?" And, which Bible?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Wait, how do we know the Bible is the "Truth?" And, which Bible?

I don’t think we are even on that topic of which Bible. You’ll have to go back and follow the conversation.

 

[F1fan]

See how you twist things… We use the Bible to open up the Truth so we can come into agreement with God and be One with Him. Do you have a wounded ego? Is that why you bring it up?

And who told you it’s the Truth? You’re going to believe people before you read the Bible? And why is it so many different Christian sects interpret the Bible differently? Who says your interpretation is correct? You? Others around you?

I’m twisting nothing. I’m telling the truth here and you have yet to dispute anything I say.

It’s the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, the Spirit doesn’t contradict the Word of God but leads believers in the Truth.

Not given what we observe. Your only explanation for other Christians sects, like Catholics, is that they are influenced by Satan, yet you offer no evidence for that accusation. You offer no arguments, just claims as dictated by your version of Christianity. I don’t see any truth that reflects what Jesus taught so why would anyone be impressed?

God hasn’t called believers to be in unity with a mix of truth and lies for unity sake.

And your version is no different. You differ in that you condemn your fellow Christians when they do not. I would say they are closer to the truth that Jesus taught than you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And who told you it’s the Truth? You’re going to believe people before you read the Bible? And why is it so many different Christian sects interpret the Bible differently? Who says your interpretation is correct? You? Others around you?

I’m twisting nothing. I’m telling the truth here and you have yet to dispute anything I say.

What are you talking about? So far I shared a couple verses of Scripture that explained myself when you questioned what I said, from Ephesians.
You said I was interpreting the Bible for self serving reasons which you have failed to prove so I will assume you made a comment you cannot back up.
So where is your telling the truth?

 

[F1fan]

What are you talking about? So far I shared a couple verses of Scripture that explained myself when you questioned what I said, from Ephesians.
You said I was interpreting the Bible for self serving reasons which you have failed to prove so I will assume you made a comment you cannot back up.
So where is your telling the truth?

Im responding to your whole lineage of posts, as well as specific comments. Your attitude towards your fellow Christians is noted and anti-Christian. THAT is how you are serving yourself and your preferred interpretation of Christianity. You are the evidence.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Im responding to your whole lineage of posts, as well as specific comments. Your attitude towards your fellow Christians is noted and anti-Christian. THAT is how you are serving yourself and your preferred interpretation of Christianity. You are the evidence.

Looks like you’re wrong again:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬-‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Wait, how do we know the Bible is the "Truth?" And, which Bible?

Which Bible should we read? Should we read the Catholic Bible, with a 73-book canon; the Greek Orthodox Bible, with a 79-book canon; or the Protestant Bible, with a 66-book canon? If we choose a Protestant Bible, then we will need to decide which version is more accurate. Is it the King James Version or one of the many other English versions of the Bible? Or perhaps everyone should read the Bible in its original languages of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to ensure its authenticity? I searched online to find out how many English versions of the Bible are currently in print, and the results ranged from 50 to more than 60 (see the search results here). If I were you, I wouldn't bother asking more than one Christian which version of the Bible to read since not only are Christians unable to determine which version of the Bible is actually the most accurate one, but they are also unable to agree about what the Bible actually teaches. The fact is that Christianity is a fragmented religion, and Christians overall are vastly divided about how to accurately interpret the Bible.

For the record, there are other myths from various civilizations that resemble the stories of Jesus in the Bible. I've discussed a few of these in-depth in previous postings, which I'll repost in this thread for you to read. As a former Christian, I believe that the biblical accounts of Jesus were adapted from paganism, including Greek mythology, which predates both the Bible and Christianity. As I've indicated in other threads, the stories of Attis, a Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation (1250 BCE), are similar to those of Jesus' crucifixion, death, and resurrection. According to the myths about Attis, he was divinely born of a virgin; he was hung on a tree and died; he descended into the underworld after his death; he was resurrected after three days; and he brought salvation with him in his rebirth. There are more similarities with Jesus' stories in this article: "Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days." There are other parallels between the stories of Jesus and other Christ-like figures from paganism that precede the Bible and Christianity, in addition to the stories that Attis and Jesus share. These articles, "10 Christ-Like Figures that Predate Jesus" and "Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ," give more examples of Christ-like figures whose lives were similar to the stories of Jesus, such as being divinely born of a virgin, being tempted by the devil before starting an earthly ministry, miraculously healing the sick, performing miracles, dying to save humanity, and being miraculously resurrected from the dead after three days. Based on all this information, the biblical accounts of Jesus are not unique.

To summarize, I believe it is reasonable to believe that paganism had a significant influence on Christianity and that this influence can be seen in the Bible, the stories about Jesus, and within Christianity itself. In this article, "Mythic Origins of Christianity and How It's Similar to Paganism," there are numerous examples of how Christianity parallels pagan religions that predate it. More examples can be found in this article: "The Bible is Fiction: A Collection of Evidence." I think it's obvious that paganism also had a significant impact on Christmas (see here) and Easter (see here). I don't think we should give the Savior story of Jesus any more credence than the other Christlike stories. Despite the claims that the Bible was inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, I believe these other stories prove that Jesus' stories aren't distinctive and that Christianity isn't as unique as Christians claim.

 

[F1fan]

Looks like you’re wrong again:

“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬-‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I’m not a Christian so no amount of quoting text is relevant or effective as a rebuttal to what I’ve been arguing.

What you cite here is propaganda that exploits certain assumptions and fears. None of it is true in a factual sense. It is only relevant to any believer that gets excited about the predictions it makes, and that the believer is on God’s side. That you post this seems to me a sort of threat.

And seriously, addressing this to little kids as if they have any clue what crazy adults are telling them? It’s called indoctrination. I find it immoral because it takes advantage of children’s inability to understand and reason.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I’m not a Christian so no amount of quoting text is relevant or effective as a rebuttal to what I’ve been arguing.

What you cite here is propaganda that exploits certain assumptions and fears. None of it is true in a factual sense. It is only relevant to any believer that gets excited about the predictions it makes, and that the believer is on God’s side. That you post this seems to me a sort of threat.

And seriously, addressing this to little kids as if they have any clue what crazy adults are telling them? It’s called indoctrination. I find it immoral because it takes advantage of children’s inability to understand and reason.

Oh wow! You really don’t understand that John was talking to his “little children” in the faith who were actually adults if you actually start at the beginning of the letter John wrote you would know that.
Thanks for reminding me that I haven’t missed anything on this forum. Have fun maybe check back later if Jesus Christ tarries.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Humans lived closer to 1000 years before the flood of Noah. Methuselah got to the age of 969.

Alas, proving that is difficult. If true, how come later people never meet the super elderly?

 

[Soandso]

Alas, proving that is difficult. If true, how come later people never meet the super elderly?

People used to have green blood too, since in the Zend Avesta it says we came from rubarb plants

 

[F1fan]

Oh wow! You really don’t understand that John was talking to his “little children” in the faith who were actually adults if you actually start at the beginning of the letter John wrote you would know that.
Thanks for reminding me that I haven’t missed anything on this forum. Have fun maybe check back later if Jesus Christ tarries.

So you’re not a literalist? Honest discourse uses proper language.